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Bringing Peace to Conflict with Jamie Winship

It’s Jamie’s fault we needed a part 2 because he has so many amazing stories. We’ve been talking about how God has better blueprints than we could ever have for ourselves. We need to have a higher view of safety. If we can teach our kids to hear from God and know who they are then they can go anywhere. This is a must listen part 2 interview with Jamie Winship!

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Related: The CIA Asked “How Are You Doing This?” with Jamie Winship


Jamie [00:00:12] All conflict is based in fear. So my wrong view of myself produces in me fear. I’m in internal conflict because of it and a person whose internal conflict can’t produce peace.

Sarah [00:00:26] That’s more from Jamie Winship. And yes, you have found part two waiting for the second part of this episode, because we just weren’t able to get to all of it last a couple weeks ago. So Jamie agreed to stick around. I’m so thankful for it. Let’s dive right in.

Sarah [00:00:42] It’s part two with Jamie Winship because you have so many good stories, it’s not my fault that I had to ask you back. It’s your own fault for having so many gorgeous stories to tell. We left off on the last episode with you talking about the way that God gave your son his identity and how God has better blueprints for us than we could ever have for ourselves. So that’s where I want you to speak a little bit more, too. You say that, you know, I spend so much time trying to keep my kids safe. I’ve got three kids and my brain is just always like, where are they going to be? Even my daughter just got her license and I let her drive. But I’ve only followed her. I followed her to the mall. You’re helping me. Your book is helping me realize that’s a low level of safe. That’s a low view of safety. A higher view of safety is what you say, which is if you can teach your kids to hear from God and know who they are, they can go anywhere.

Jamie [00:01:46] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s so interesting. The different places where where we took our kids. You know as a parent, when you’re at baby dedication service, one of the things that we want to be careful to do with the Lord is when you dedicate your child to the Lord, what you’re saying to the Lord really is kind of like Hannah in the Old Testament when she’s giving that child to the Lord. She’s giving that child to the Lord. When you dedicate your son or daughter to the Lord, you’re saying, “Lord, I am here to steward this identity, to be calm all that You have for this beautiful thing person that you knit together in their mother’s womb and wherever they need to be. Lord, I commit to helping them get there.” But a lot of times what happens in our culture is a whole other topic to talk about some other time is we’re doing more of an animistic thing with God and we’re saying, “God, if I dedicate this child to You, will You make sure nothing bad ever happens to all?” That’s a that’s a whole different mentality and what you’re doing then is you’re actually trying to protect your kid from what God might do. In doing that, we actually hurt them. We actually harm them. Instead of saying entrusting them to God and saying God when as this child starts to discover the amazing depths of who they really are. Would You make them fearless in pursuing it? And then what we’re going to do as parents is model that fearlessness so that so that they won’t learn to be fearful. All fear other than the fear of falling and the fear of loud noises. All fear is a learned fear. And so that means you can unlearn fear, which is great. But so in my own children, as they were growing, my wife and I would observe what they were afraid of and realize either they learned that from us to be afraid of that or they learned it from someone else. So we have to like, help them understand fear and how to how to work through fear. Fear is beautiful. Fear is helpful. It keeps us sober minded and wakes up to the wrong thinking and wrong decisions. But it’s not a decision maker fears not the decision maker, to warn or like an engine light flashing. It’s just saying you need to pay attention to the way you’re thinking about this right now or that or the way you’re going or where you are at 3 a.m.. Pay attention to this and make a decision about it. But fear is not the decision maker. When fear becomes the decision maker, then you lead a life of self-protection and self-promotion, which is the opposite of what God has made you to be.

Sarah [00:04:42] So you have two stories I’m going to ask you to tell both your decision on what order you want to tell them in, but they both involve God’s protection. The first is with your buddy, who you call Jason Bourne. And so you know that story. The second is when you actually had fear get in the way. So you took some time and you met with the Lord and He showed you something. But both have a similar a similar piece to the story. So which one do you want to tell first?

Jamie [00:05:12] Well, let’s see. I want to make sure I know both stories, because I’ve been with Jason Bourne in a lot of different scenarios. So you might have to remind me.

Sarah [00:05:21] It’s the one where they set out four place settings.

Jamie [00:05:23] Yeah. So my friend will call in Jason Bourne. He’s an operative for the U.S. and really talented. Anything you would think about Jason Bourne, this is what this guy is. Their real people. There really are people like this. They’re super smart and they’re very sophisticated people. Anyway, he had come to something. I was doing a lecture in Washington, DC on counterterrorism and things like that. And he came up to me is your he’s younger than me. And he said, I want to and I think this is important. You said, “I want to know if you’re the real deal.” Which I really respect that question because and I said to him, “What does that mean?” And he said, “I want to know if you’re the real deal, because the real anyone can stand up and tell stories.” Which is exactly right. I love that. And I said, “Well, I can tell you on the real deal, but that wouldn’t make any difference, would it? You’d have to come with me and see for yourself, right?” Because people can’t do what they’ve never seen. That’s what modeling is for and discipleship is doing things in front of people, letting them see God work in ways that then they can move, start to move into it, this parenting and everything else. So I said, “Why don’t you come with me and why don’t you come with me to the to the place where I go that’s the most intimidating to me on a project I’m working on.” So he agreed and it was it’s a big deal for him to go into a country because this is considered an act of military aggression by himself. So if a country discovers him in their country and they don’t know ahead of time that he’s there, it’s considered an act of war by the U.S., if you can believe that one guy. Anyway, so here we work it out because it was in another country. So he and I go and it’s a difficult journey to get to this location where we’re going to work. It’s a counterterrorism scenario. The place where we go it’s a refugee situation in the Sahara Desert. It’s been there a long time. It’s all built on violence and warfare. But so we get out there and I told him when we’re gone and I said, “Listen, when we get in there, we have to go in at night for different reasons.” I said, “But when we get in at night, they’ll walk. They’ll come out and meet us in the desert and walk us in.” And, you know, we’re unarmed and all of that stuff. So we just have to trust God how it’s going to go. So we go in there. I say, “When we go in there, what they’re going to tell us where to sleep in these big Bedouin tents in the next day when we wake up, they’ll have set up tables for us on the ground, you know, sit on the ground, and they’ll have plates.” It was me, and him, and a Pentagon official was with us, three of us. They’ll have plates for us and we’ll eat and then they’ll come in later and we’ll start the process about the stuff we’re going to do together. We’re doing that trying to get them to opt out of Islamic terrorism. And so we get up the next morning, we get to go into the other room to eat, and there’s four place settings instead of three. There’s four and we sit down. Well, he’s super observant of everything that’s going on all the time. And he said, “Why are there four place settings? Is there someone else coming in here?” And I said, “No, I’m pretty sure no one else is coming here till we’re done, but I don’t know what they’re four.” He says, “Has there ever been four before?” And I said, “No, I don’t. I don’t know why there’s four. I’m telling you, there’s I don’t know.” So every meal that we eat and they’re customs to let you eat by yourself, it’s considered impolite to watch your guest eat. So they always would set the food in a room and we would eat and then they would come in when we were finished. And so it was always this extra place sitting and it would drive him crazy. And it was funny because the MIT guy he was a Navy commander, he didn’t care. He could care less. It’s interesting the different identities they just but him. He was consumed with the detail of what was going on. And so after, you know, several days with them and this going on with the war, with the men, the leaders of these this tribe, and and he said, “I’m going to ask them about the extra plate.” And I said, “Okay, whatever.” Well, in the meetings that were in there cause he and I have gone in there since this time. But it’s very tense. There’s always a segment of the group that we’re meeting with that want to kill us. I mean, they talk about it nonstop. You’re there. It’s very nerve wracking when you’re in these meetings and there’s at least two of the 12 leaders saying, “Let’s just kill them right now. It’s just they’re U.S. They’re you know, they’re spies or let’s just kill them right now.” It’s a constant chatter that you hear when you’re among them. So we’re in these pretty tense meetings and we’re unarmed and we are in the middle of nowhere and they constantly move. So you can’t really sit there and think about, are we safe or not? You just don’t can’t think that way. And you’ll see why in a second. Just learn not to think that way. But you have to have a reason not to think that way. You can’t talk yourself into it. So we’re in this evening meeting with them, and Jason Bourne’s like he says, “Hey, because he all of a sudden he was fluent in their language, they speak Hassaniya where we were. And I’m like, “How do you do? How do you know their language?” And he said, “I just I know their language.” And I said, “When were you going to tell us?” He said, “I don’t know. I never thought about telling you.” He’s like that everywhere we go. Everywhere I have ever been with him, he’s suddenly fluent in their language, but he’s like that. So he’s in Hassaniya, he says to them, “Can I ask you about why there is four place settings when we eat?” They said they thought it was an odd question. And they said, “Well, because there’s four of you.” He looks at me and I just shrug and the Pentagon guy didn’t even care. He’s not even interested in the conversation. He was there. He was thinking of something else we were working on there. And so Jason Bourne says, “Well, what do you mean? There’s four of us? Like there’s four of us?” And they’re like, “Yeah, there’s four of you.” And he looked at me and then I like know what they’re saying because I’ve had this happen to me before in other places. But I just thought that he’s this is going to drive and this is going to really astound him when he figures out what this is. And so he says, “Okay.” He said, “There’s four of us.” And they said, “Yeah.” He said, “Are there are there are four of us here now?” And they laughed at him and they said, “No, your the other guy’s out, the one outside, the one that stands outside the door.” And he said, “There’s a guy outside the door?” And then they realize that we can’t see the fourth guy. They figure that out among themselves in Hassaniya they’re using the word “malachite” which means angel. So they’re saying, “Oh, my gosh their guy is an angel.” And that’s what they’re saying among themselves. Iit’s causing this stir among them. Then Jason Bourne can hear him saying that. But he doesn’t it doesn’t click with them. Like, why are they saying that? So he’s asking and he says what he says, “What is the other guy look like? What is our other guy look like? He’s look, does he look like us?” And they said “He looks like you, but he’s bigger than you guys. He’s bigger than all three of you guys. He’s big and he’s outside. He’s your security guy, isn’t he’s? He stands guard over you all night long at your tent. Isn’t that your security guy?” And then then they started saying, {Hassaniyan Phrase} “It’s an angel of God that you have an angel of God.” And they said, “That’s why the guys that don’t like you here won’t bother you is because of your security guy.” So everywhere we were walking, there was this fourth person with us and and he was bigger than us and they then they asked us, they said “We wanted to ask you why your security guy has a sword. He has this amazing sword.” And then Jason Bourne was like, “Our guy has a sword.” And he was all impressed by the fact that our guy had a sword. And so that night when we went, we’re back alone in our part of this camp is pitch black out there. Jason Bourne whispers to me and he says, “How many? How many people or how many creatures do you think are with us?” And I said, “I don’t know. Who knows?” But it was like, you know, seeing the angels and seeing the chariots of God with Elijah. And it was that kind of scenario. And then so because of that then Jason Bourne character, there was other things in his life he wanted to talk about. But he didn’t want to talk to me about him until he knew that I was the real deal. That he didn’t want to ask me really personal questions about himself until he really believed that God was really active in my life. And then he started confiding things in me. We’ve become lifelong friends because of that. But yeah.

Sarah [00:14:23] I would imagine the situation that that would definitely spark a lifelong friendship. That moment right there.

Jamie [00:14:30] Yeah, it was it was very beautiful. It was a beautiful time for that.

Sarah [00:14:35] I like this story because, you know, you write a book called Living Fearless, and, you know, this is what you talk about. Yet I was grateful to hear that there was a moment a little bit where you actually struggled with it. I liked hearing how you came out of it, what you asked God and what He revealed to you.

Jamie [00:15:02] So there was at the time I got in the car with the guys. Is that what you’re thinking about?

Sarah [00:15:09] Mm no, I’ve never heard that.

Jamie [00:15:10] Let me tell you that.

Sarah [00:15:14] Oh, this is going to be a newbie.

Jamie [00:15:17] So after that scenario with Jason Bourne, I was working by myself in a middle Eastern country. So we had been in Iraq. In Iraq just to show you the level of fear that I do have to deal with. We all have to deal with fear. None of us are impervious to fear, even on a daily basis about our kids, because my oldest son spent five years in Iraq and then into Afghanistan. And, you know, I didn’t love that either. You know, I prayed a lot for him, that son. And then one of my sons is an FBI agent and he works in a dicey stuff. So as a parent, I struggle with it, too. And they’re like, “Dad, you’re the one that taught us how to do all this stuff, so why are you nervous about it?” But so when we were in Iraq, I was a team leader in Iraq and the senior…Our team was divided into two sections, a senior and junior team. The senior team all were killed in one day. The whole team was killed in one day. So that had happened. And then, you know, that’s a tough situation and you have to go I.D. all the bodies and you have to contact all the relatives and all that is very difficult. These were senior people. They knew what they were doing and they made a mistake. They were all killed. And so that next year, we were working in another country and I was by myself in this scenario. The ones that were killed were in a car. It was a situation involving a car. They were in a car and killed in the car. So I was working in this situation and my job was to make contact with this certain individual who was wanted by different governments and to get him to come out from leading these groups. So I had made contact with the guy. He was not a super nice guy and and one of his lieutenants was with him when I finally made contact with them. So I’m in the city. I had made contact with the day before. That night I’m out on the street waiting for a taxi to go home and this car pulls up and in the car is the guy that I’m looking for. The driver and two guys in the backseat and they pulled up and the guy, the guy that I’m looking for rolls down the window and he says to me, “Where are you going?” And I said, “Oh, I’m just going home you know, I’ll see you guys again tomorrow.” And they said, “Get in the car, We’ll give you a ride home.” And I knew, I knew they knew who I was and I knew who they were and you do not get in a car with do not get in the car ever in these situations. However. I made the mistake of asking God what He wanted me to know and do. So like immediately my training is you don’t get in that car, you walk away. We just had a whole team killed months before, and so it was easy for me. I was like, “No.” I said, “No thanks. I’ll just I’ll wait for a taxi, you know, I want to inconvenience you guys.” And they were and they got out of the car. Two guys in the backseat got out and said, “No, we insist that you come with us.” And so I asked, God, “Do you want me to get in the car?” And immediately I knew the answer was yes, get in the car. But I didn’t want to get in the car. So I had this debate going on and I was backing away from the two guys and I had this thing going on inside of me like. I don’t want to get in the car. Should I get in the car? I kept I was by this time in my life, I know the voice of God. I know it sounds like I don’t debate it. Anyway, so I knew the Lord wanted me to get in the car. So I said, “Okay, I’ll go with you guys.” So I got in and they put me in the back seat between the two guys, which is the worst possible place to sit in a car. If you’re in a car in the back between the two guys. So they get in the car and they say, “Where do you live? Where do you live?” And I said, “Up that way.” They made a U-turn and they drove the opposite direction. And then is when you’re, you know, the danger of just shifting into the reptilian brain and just reacting. So like, I know how to get out of a car like that. We train how to get out of those cars. It’s violent, but you can do it and that. So that’s the next thing I want to get out of this car, because they went through the city and out into the desert and I knew, “Man, if we’re going out into the desert, this is going to be bad.” They drove out into the desert and the guy…But the practice is of the present state in the present tense. You can’t let your mind even get 30 seconds forward in the future because you start guessing what’s going to happen and once you start guessing, then you’re in, then you’re operating and what may not be true, Right? And this is where the lie based thinking starts is out of control. God can’t help you now. You’re in trouble. You made a mistake. It’s all like that really quick and you have to keep pulling it back into the present and just saying, “God, what do you want me to do right now?” And he would just say, “You’re okay. Don’t go 30 seconds into the future. Stay right in the present tense. Right in the present.” And the guy in the front seat turns around and he looks at me and he said. He said, “We know who you are. We know what you’re doing here, and we’re taking you out into the desert and we’re going to put you on trial. We’re going to execute you in the desert.” And he said, “What do you think of that?” And I thought, “Oh, my gosh, what do I think of that?” And I asked the Lord, “What do you what do I think of that? What do I think of that?” It was really beautiful. It was just this calm sense of tell this, tell them this is what was in my mind. Tell him you’re not afraid of them and that you want to be his friend. And I thought, But neither of those are true. Those are both lies. I am afraid. And I don’t want to be his friend. I don’t like him at all. But the Lord said, “Just speak it as if it’s true. This is what faith is. Faith is the substance of things you hope for. It’s the evidence of things not yet seen. Just say it. Speak it. As if it were true.” Which is really beautiful. Then I said, “Okay. I’m not afraid of you.” And as soon as I said it, I felt less fearful. As soon as I said it. And then I said, “And actually, I’m here to be your friend.” And then I kind of hoped I could be his friend. It was really interesting. It’s like God speaking creation. It’s like when He says it, it’s comes to be, right? And so I said, and as soon as I said, it just something changed in the car was like some there was a power shift in the car. It was like almost like it got lighter. It was at night, but it’s like it got lighter. And he looked back at me and he smiled and he said, “Oh, you’re not afraid of me and you want to be my friend.” And I said, “Yeah, I think I do. I think that’s true.” And he said, “Okay, all right.” They turned the car around. He said, “We’re going to take you back to your house.” He knew right where I lived, of course, and he knew that my wife was with me in the city. He said, “We’re going to we’re going to take you back to your house and we’re going to drop you off and tomorrow night I’m going to send a car and a driver and you get your wife and you both get in the car and go wherever that driver takes you and trust that we don’t kill both of you. If you want to be my friend and you’re not afraid, do that. To show me that you’re not afraid and that you want to be my friend. Trust me with the life of your wife.” So they took me back and dropped me off. And so I go in and my wife, Donna, she’s like, “How was your day?” And I said, “Oh, it was interesting.” And I said, “We’ve got a dinner invitation for tomorrow night.” And she said, “Where?” And I go, “Well, it’s going to be a surprise, I think.” But then I told her the scenario. I told her the scenario. And so she I said, “You have to decide.” I said, This guy could absolutely kill both of us. I’m telling you, he’s known for it. But I think it’s the right thing to do. But you decide. I’m going to go. But you decide. So she prayed, you know, and we thought about our kids and all that stuff. And then she decided, “No, I think I think we should go.” So the next night the car came and we went and got in the car and the guy driver was there and he just got in and he just drove straight up into the mountains. Also, not a great place to go. Straight way up into these mountains. We just held hands and we were just like, “You know, Lord, that’s what we’ve been doing our whole life. And so to live as Christ and to die is a gain. And we’ll just see where this goes. But we feel like this is your invitation, Lord. And if You’re doing the inviting, why would we say no? No matter what it is, why would we say no to You? We’re not victims.” And so anyway, he drives up to this villa in the mountains and we get out of the car and it’s the guy and his entire leadership team and their wives, all of them, as the entire group of leadership. And so we go in there and they Donna goes off. Again, so remember, my wife is Jewish. This is an Islamic Fundamentalist gathering. And so she goes off with the women, and I go up with the men. And through the night, both of us walked those people out of false identity into true identity. I have a picture here also on my wall of in the morning when the sun was coming up, we stayed all night. When the sun was coming up, the guy that said, “We’re going to kill you.” She went over to a fire and cut off a leg of lamb and he knelt down in front of me. And this is the picture I have of him. He knelt down in front of me with a leg of lamb and he held it in to he served me. And he said, “I’m so glad that you weren’t afraid of me and that you wanted to be my friend.” And when we ate together, he disbanded his team. They stopped fighting. And the only other time I’ve ever seen him, as I was walking through the airport in Istanbul and he was coming the other way, and he just walked past me. We just looked at and smiled and just past is totally just completely withdrawn from any violence because of that night we had and we talked about identity, God, faith. So yeah, there’s just those times where you just trust God. Yeah, we call that seeing Jesus, our team calls it seeing Jesus, if you look around and you see whenever we’re in a situation where we think we might die, we always say, “Does anyone see Jesus?” Because if we see Jesus, we know it’s over and it’s okay. We’re done. We’re going home. He’s here to get us. If we don’t see Jesus, we all just say, “Wow, it’s going to hurt.” This is going to hurt. But those are not going that we’re not going to die. So, yeah.

Sarah [00:25:49] Well, wow. I mean, I feel like that’s really the only response to so many of your stories is wow. And then, you know, in our final little bit of time here together, you know, we’ve built upon all these stories. But you even just ended that one with you led them all through false identity into their true identity. So let’s talk about that for the remainder of our time together. You know, someone might be listening, going, my identity. I’m a mom, I’m a wife. I’m a sister, I volunteer all those things. But you’re talking about something so much deeper. So go ahead and share a little bit more. When you say identity, what do you mean? And how does someone begin to find out what there’s what there’s truly is.

Jamie [00:26:28] Yeah. So, identity is the essence of…I like to say it like this. It’s the essence of the “I” deep within you. Grounded and rooted in love. It’s always your true identity is grounded in love, sourced in love, and it’s to be discovered in community through your lifetime. The most beautiful thing about you. So even when I’m looking at you like I see you, but I’m like, there’s this identity that I’m looking at that’s that, that even you don’t know at all, right? And so to not to be friends with you would be this amazing journey of part of my identity and friendship with you would be to draw your identity out. And your identity would draw my identity out. But it’s drawn out in love, not in competition, not in comparison, in love. Like there’s a part of you that’s super valuable and it would be valuable to know you for my good and vice versa. This is how the body is supposed to work together. So that’s the true and knit together by God in your mother’s womb. Unique, never done before, Never done ever again. The false identity is just simply its coping mechanisms in response to trauma in our life. Whatever kind of trauma and traumas relative to a person it could be you did put on a spelling test or you’re severely abused. Whatever the trauma is, you develop a view of yourself based in the trauma you develop. Like, I’m not enough, I’m not smart enough, I’m not good enough, I’m unworthy, I’m unseen all of these things. Then you develop coping mechanisms to deal with the trauma. Again, not bad. They’re just coping mechanisms, but they limit you. Those those coping mechanisms will continue through your lifetime until they are addressed. They’ll let you survive, but they won’t let you thrive. So you’ll live the false identity will constantly self-promote and self protect. That’s what it does. Until it’s done, until it’s made well or made whole. Then you do not need it anymore. So those that’s just the difference between the true and the false. So just think of all through Scripture, all through Scripture, God pulling walking people into the truth of who they are. Gideon’s one I use a lot of times when I’m working with high school kids. It’s like Gideon is a mighty man of valor. He was born a mighty man of valor. He’s always been a mighty man of valor. He thinks he’s a coward and he thinks he’s a victim, so he lives like one until he has an interaction with the angel of the Lord. God will only speak to you in your true identity. You can’t and won’t speak to our false identity. And so Gideon’s like, I’m the least. I’m the worst. I’m the poorest like that. And the angel, the Lord won’t speak to that identity because it’s not true. He says, “Go in the strength you’ve always had and liberate this country.” So when I’m talking to people, my goal is to talk to the true them so they can identify themselves to me as I’m a muslim fundamentalists or I’m an evangelical Christian, those are just gang names. They’re not identities, they’re just names of groups that we’re in. And I want to talk to the real you and the real you. Those men in that camp were were little boys who had lived traumatic lives and were afraid and angry. That’s all they were. And only they were now 40 years old. I just walked back into the truth with Jesus. As soon as they knew who they really were, they were free not to fight anymore. So that’s the identity process. Christ is always inviting us into the truth of who we are with, the truth of who He is and and the truth of who my neighbor is. Love God, love your neighbor in the same way you love yourself. Those are all knowing the truth of each one.

Sarah [00:30:26] And the reason this works in conflict is because.

Jamie [00:30:30] Because all conflict is based in fear. All conflict is based in fear. And the fear is based in a wrong view of yourself, of the of the person drawing view of themselves. Right? So my wrong view of myself produces in me fear. I self-protective self promote which starts and it puts it in internal conflict because of it. A person who’s in internal conflict can’t produce peace. They can only produce conflict. Right? So out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. So when I’m talking to a person that already feels like they’re not good enough. That person’s in conflict internally and until that conflict is resolved. The most they can do is have kind of a tenuous relationship with another person. But mostly there’s a lot of conflict involved. So you just see it in the schools and in our culture is constantly in conflict. We don’t know what peace is in our culture. I mean, we can’t even have a discussion about any topic without people getting really upset. That’s because of their own internal conflict. Once they understand the beauty of who they actually are as made by Christ, they just don’t need to fight anymore. You can just let the other person be who they are and you be who you are. Let’s do this together.

Sarah [00:31:55] That’s just one of the reasons you say that your identity is the gift that you give to this world. Final thought?

Jamie [00:32:01] Yes and so that’s why, like when I’m even just meeting you, I want to know that part of you. Like, I’m not content just to meet a person and have some kind of superficial…like you’re a gift to the world. I want to know what your gift is to the world because it’s valuable to me. It has a value to me and my journey. And so when we get in a room, that’s at conflict. It’s really beautiful to walk them into true identity. And then they start giving the gift of who they are to each other and it resolves conflict. It’s stunning to watch, but Jesus is doing it all the time in the gospels with people. So much to think about.

Sarah [00:32:35] What’s the name that He calls you?

Jamie [00:32:38] Untie-r of knots?

Sarah [00:32:38] What is Jesus calling you?

Jamie [00:32:39] Calls me the untie-r of knots. So I have this brass knot that someone gave me as a gift, and they said, This is what you do. You come into situations that are knotted into terrorism or whatever, and your identity unties the knot. Once my identity has untied the knot, then the other identities on my team, they give their identities in. It’s the whole healing and wellness of the other. I just do one little part, but we all do little parts.

Sarah [00:33:08] Well, our conversation should have come with a disclaimer because it is impossible to hear these two episodes and not be changed because it hits that truth receptor like a bull’s eye. All of a sudden now your soul’s like you feel it, you know it. Already some of that false identity is bubbling up and the Lord is lovingly saying, “Let’s deal with this. I’ve got something more for you.” Really, this conversation is the entire reason I felt compelled to start the Passion Meets Purpose podcast. I just didn’t have some of this language. So thank you for helping us have more language. Jamie’s book is called Is It Living Fearless or Living Fearlessly?

Jamie [00:33:45] It’s living fearless. Yeah, fearless. Living.

Sarah [00:33:48] Okay. Living fearless. His website is Identity Exchange, and we’ll link it all in the show notes. Jamie, thank you so much for your time.

Jamie [00:33:58] Yeah, thank you for having me. It’s nice to meet you.

Sarah [00:34:00] Don’t you just wish that it could go on for hours? I do too. Well, actually, it can. If you grab Jamie’s book, Living Fearless, or if you hop on over to I’m going to go and sign up for this right now to sign up for the the resources, the deep dive into a three month journey with identity exchange it’s happening this summer. They’ve also got personal one on one coaches that you can find. So if you are looking for that name that God calls you, that unique name that Jamie was talking about, he’s going to help walk you through it. He and his wife, Donna and their team over at, which is clearly linked up in the show notes. I would love to hear how these past two episodes have impacted you. I would love to hear what you’re thinking about it. So please would you contact us? There’s various ways to do that and we’ll link up to that as well. is what hosts this podcast episode and I would just love to hear. So thank you so much. Thanks to Terra Firma, Scott Karow, Rebecca Beckett, Luke Swanberg, and we will see you in two weeks.

Sarah [00:34:00] Don’t you just wish that it could go on for hours? I do too. Well, actually, it can. If you grab Jamie’s book, Living Fearless, or if you hop on over to I’m going to go and sign up for this right now to sign up for the the resources, the deep dive into a three month journey with identity exchange it’s happening this summer. They’ve also got personal one on one coaches that you can find. So if you are looking for that name that God calls you, that unique name that Jamie was talking about, he’s going to help walk you through it. He and his wife, Donna and their team over at, which is clearly linked up in the show notes. I would love to hear how these past two episodes have impacted you. I would love to hear what you’re thinking about it. So please would you contact us? There’s various ways to do that and we’ll link up to that as well. is what hosts this podcast episode and I would just love to hear. So thank you so much. Thanks to Terra Firma, Scott Karow, Rebecca Beckett, Luke Swanberg, and we will see you in two weeks.

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