There’s Grace in the Wilderness with Chris Cleveland of Stars Go Dim

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Transcription:

Chris Cleveland: There’s been plenty to complain about. There’s been plenty of craziness. There’s been plenty of hurt and pain and all of those things. But even in the midst of that, what I love about it is it doesn’t negate all of this stuff, but it gives us an opportunity to find Jesus in it. Jesus, you have my attention. Okay.

Sarah Taylor: That is Chris Cleveland. He’s the front man for Stars Go Dim. Brand new project, and you’re going to get a great preview if you haven’t heard it yet. He’s got the piano right in front of him during this podcast so I told him he can only do 20 second clips of new music so that we don’t have to go after the rights. So, you know how that works. So yeah, you get tiny little Costco samples of new music from him. And he is just a wealth of information behind the way that our brains and our hearts work when it comes to music and melody and understanding God better. He talks about why he gravitates towards pop music, and it’s just a fascinating conversation.

We start with the fact that for his side hustle, he’s also a podcaster. He co-hosts along with Tim Timmons, the 10,000 minutes podcasts. So, we start with what he’s learned with that side hustle.

Chris Cleveland: Oh gosh. I mean, it happens all the time. It happens a lot, even when I’m, when I’m playing, I’ll give like a three-minute sermon on some word or something. Like one that was really simple, but kind of blew my mind was this idea of blessing, and we were rethinking the idea of blessing. And in my mind, like probably most people who’ve gone to church their whole lives, but never really dove into it, I never understood how we could bless the Lord. I always took blessing as something that like we get, or it was like this tangible thing, or when something went well for us, then we were blessed or whatever.

The reality is the Bible never mentions blessing as a form of like money, or stuff. It’s not a tangible thing like that, but it’s actually this process of being made whole, or this like act of calling out something that’s true about someone, or about God in someone and like the work that He’s doing. And so, it, one, kind of blew my mind. Two, I was like, oh, so this is how we bless the Lord.

Like we just proclaim who he is. And there’s this cool kind of communal aspect to blessing that when we bless others, when we call out those things in others, it actually, like, kind of solidifies his process of making them whole. And in then blessing becomes reciprocal and you’re blessed by being a blessing. It’s man. It’s crazy. So, yeah, I’ve learned some good tidbits like that.

Sarah Taylor: You’re talking about one of my favorite things, calling out the gold you see inside of other people. Cause I think we have some sort of a truth receptor in us that when someone says the truth about, you know, who we are uniquely made in the image of God, you watch someone like step into that.

Chris Cleveland: That’s exactly right. I think, and when you can see it and when you, I mean, this can be. Right. I do it with my kids or, or a friend. Like, and sometimes you think about these things, but you don’t say them, and it’s still like, it’s this practice of like, hey, I’m going to say this nice thing that I thought about my wife or my children or my friend. And somebody told me the other day, they described it. When you do that, you actually double the blessing because not only are you, like, you’re both being blessed, and that like the joy that comes from that gets reciprocated. So, so now you’re saying how much it means to them. And then you’re being blessed now back on, on top because of that. And, you know I, I try to practice that with my kids and wife and things, and just say what I’m thinking when I think it, instead of holding it in, you know?

Sarah Taylor: I’ve heard that you call Tim Timmons, who does this podcast, like a walking bumper sticker. Explain that.

Chris Cleveland: He is, he’s like a walking Jesus bumper sticker. One, he’s like, if you’ve ever been around Bob Goff or, you know, like Bob Goff, he’s like, I feel like maybe the father of this, and he and Tim have to be, you know, cousins or something, you know? I don’t know, but they’re like cut from the same cloth, joyful, like talk about somebody who blesses people really, really well.

He has a gift of, of bringing out the best in people. And so, I like to talk good about him behind his back, but also to his face. And but he just has all of these like sayings and little quips, and just a way with people and words that make me feel better when I leave. And some of them are cheesy and some of them are hokey.

Now this isn’t very bumper stickers, but it’s really funny. If someone walks into the room late and, I’ve stolen this from him a lot, and he’s kind of talking, he’ll pause. He’ll affirm them, look at them and say, Hey, listen, we’re just wrapping up, going around all confessing our most recent moral failures and it’s your turn. You know, he’ll do something like that. And really just, really put somebody on the spot in a funny way. It’s pretty fun.

Sarah Taylor: It’s interesting. We’ve spent part of this discussion, you and I talking about the power of words, and I feel like that also transitions into the type of music that you make. Let’s talk for a moment about why we need to be so careful with the words we choose to put out there.

Chris Cleveland: Yeah, I think, I mean, this is any music, but especially music that claims some sort of faith behind it, or when you get into worship music and those type of things. I’m going to, I’m going to botch this pretty badly, but follow me. There’s a, a pastor in Colorado Springs, his name’s Glenn Packiam, and he had this tiny little book that I read years ago, and he said this in Latin and it sounded way more fancy. I’m also the guy that like reads the book, forgets about it. I forget the quote, forget the guy that says it, but I get like the, jist, you know, and I’m very jealous of people who like Mike Donehey. He like, oh, he knows like the author, the book, the page number, maybe a little autobiography.

Yeah. I’m like, come on, man. But I’m very jealous of him for that. But Glenn Packiam, he had this book and he’s talking about worship, and he says, we believe what we sing and what we believe we live, essentially. And, and so the, the underlying point of that is like our words have the power, not just to affect what we think, but how we, how we act and the way we live. When we put words in people’s mouth to sing, there’s gotta be some like ethical, moral code or some responsibility for us that we take in and what those words are. And if, you know, worship music, then you’re thinking about the theology of the church and, and like the truth and the things that, that you and your team and your church really want to lean into, when you’re, when you’re talking about music, like I do a lot. A lot of the themes that you’ll find that I’ve honed in on are around worth identity value.

Things like that after I out the song You Are Loved in 2015, it kind of took on this crazy life of its own. And really long story short, I just realized how many people need affirmation that, that their lives had value and that they were loved. And so, a lot of the songs that I put to radio a lot of the songs that I write are along those themes, because I feel like God’s put that on my heart to speak to people. And, and that’s a message that I talk about live.

Sarah Taylor: That’s the right motivation for sure. I’m going to take you all the way back. You didn’t botch up that quote at all. You got that thing, just Mike Donehey level of quoting and explaining it.

Chris Cleveland: In well, thanks. See, you just blessed me right there. That’s pretty good.

Sarah Taylor: You were talking about what gets you up in the morning. You want to help people understand how much they’re loved because when we live from that place, we bring heaven to earth.

Chris Cleveland: Yeah, let’s go. Yeah, the older I get the way more… I I’m so much more concerned about bringing heaven to earth than anything else. And And I feel like that’s a lot of what Jesus preached and, and a lot of what he did in his life. And if I’m following that example in those words, man that’s kind of my goal. And what I found in the midst of that, when I focus on that more than other things, is I’m a better person. I’m, I’m a happier person and people around me are happier. Like it, it just becomes a better world that we’re living in. And I think if we could all kind of approach it from that way, we would all be doing a little bit better. I love that. Thanks for sharing.

Sarah Taylor: Let’s talk about a couple of the ways that you get yourself into that place of, I am loved. I know one of them, I think you, I wonder if you still do this, Tim taught it to you, it’s a breathing practice in the morning and you breathe in and you breathe out.

Chris Cleveland: Breathe in Jesus, breathe out, you have my attention. I almost said this instead of the blessing thing earlier because it was one of the things that I think was so simple, but, but really revolutionize the way that I lived. And I think, gosh, we get going crazy. The pandemic slowed us down a bit, but we all found new ways to, you know, fill our brains with stuff to do or, you know, put something in front of us to make us feel busy. But when we can be mindful enough, Tim would say, when we can be sober enough, sober of mind to acknowledge God and what he’s doing for us, in and through like everything and say, where can I find you today? Jesus like, Jesus, you have my attention. Okay. Where can I find you? I want to be on the lookout for you. I want to meet you here. And I think it’s just, it’s a simple practice to realign your perspective. If any of us have needed that it’s been over the last couple of years because there’s been plenty to complain about. There’s been plenty of craziness. There’s been plenty of hurt and pain and all of those things. But even in the midst of that, what I love about it is it doesn’t negate all of this stuff, but it gives us an opportunity to find Jesus. And that has been really revolutionary for me. It’s really simple. I mean, you can do it anytime in your day. You know, a lot of times it hits me before I even open my eyes and it just becomes a part of the consciousness as it goes, Jesus, you have my attention. Okay. I can settle down here. I don’t need to go crazy on this guy who just you know, cut me off in traffic or whatever it is, you know gives you some perspective.

Sarah Taylor: Let’s talk about your music, how, you know, in this industry, it’s easy for people to write a ballad. You know, whenever we, this is a little bit insider information for someone listening to this podcast, but radio stations, they test their music. And the way they do that is they get research back from their audience. And the songs that usually test super high are slower, contemplative ballads. And then here you come with your pop music, with your energy, with your brightness, and it is just, it is a welcome sunburst. Your music is audio vitamin D through the speakers. So, when did you realize this, this is my lane?

Chris Cleveland: I’ve always been or had a slant for like pop music. It’s just kind of what comes out when I sing or do music. I think there’s people like in our genre and Christian music that do pop music, and, and do it really, really well. And some people do like really epic pop stuff. Like for KING & COUNTRY, it’d be like epic pop. You’re feeling kind of like the, the peaks and valleys of that kind of stuff.

And then you’ve got guys like Tauren or Jordan who are doing this, like almost like gospel pop thing. And then I think people like me, I say unspoken kind of fits in this too. And there’s a few of us. Where we’re doing more kind of it just makes you feel good. You know what I mean? And what I try to do is pack some good truth into a pop song.

So, if you, if you turn it up because it feels good, then after you listened to it for a while, some of those lyrics, like we talked about, begin to form you a bit. And and so, that’s kind of what I try to do a lot is give you a little more depth than you’d expect. And I’m excited because I’m just, I’m like, Days away from releasing a brand-new record of a bunch of songs that I think are the best pop songs that I’ve ever written. So, I’ve been listening to it for like a year and a half and I’m not tired of it yet. So I’m kind of pumped to finally give it to you guys.

Sarah Taylor: Well, you’ve got a piano in front of you. I mean, you gotta just like play me a couple of chords, or like a chorus or a hook of something. Something that I don’t have to go digging for rights. Right. It must be less than 30 seconds. That’s the rules or my digital team gets mad at me.

Chris Cleveland: Okay. Like a brand new song?. This is cool. And I do it kind of slow because I want you to get the depth. I been asleep, pet him to say watching the time, just ticking. Clock runs around days, and then can’t really call and live in. Somewhere like he is where my new story starts. So, it’s actually kind of like a little dark lyrics. Like, man, I’ve been struggling a little bit, you know what I mean? But in the, you know, the song is pretty peppy on the radio, saw acoustics and four on the floor kick, but then that chorus kicks in; take my, and let it be said on file for all to see.

Break me down. Build me up again game. Don’t leave me the way I’ve been. take my heart into your hands, come and finish what you began. Till I see your Kingdom come. Till I shine, shine, like heaven on earth.

So, there’s a little bit for you.

Sarah Taylor: Okay. So good. Can you give us a sample, 22nd sampler of something new?

Chris Cleveland: What do I want to give you?

Sarah Taylor: You can do more than one.

Chris Cleveland: Okay. I’ll give you, I’ll give you a couple. Title track off the record. I love this. I never know.

Is every day and heavy day.

And of course you’ll give me grace, grace. send, you gave me faith, faith, faith, when I’m losing and nobody knows what we’ve been. So, about house be like you, do you give me grace in the wilderness. So, I really like that one.

Sarah Taylor: Oh my. When is that? We’re going to go to the next one. When is this album out? What’s the title?

Chris Cleveland: April 29th. It’s out. The title is grace in the wilderness that song’s probably never going to be a radio single, but I stinking love it. Let’s see. What else do we have?

How does that song go? I need to find on the lyrics. That’s my pro I’ve got this guy that that does hear me out. I’ve got this guy that does all my what is it called? Social media and stuff. When we do these videos, you know, every week and he’s like, can you play the song? I’m like, dude, I don’t know the, the words I’ve never played it before. And so, we have to do this over and over again where I find the lyrics to songs I wrote myself and reteach it to me.

Sarah Taylor: That makes me feel so much better.

Chris Cleveland: Right? Here’s a confession to the last, like three shows. I keep forgetting the bridge to heaven on earth, even though I’ve played it thousands of times at this point. And I think it’s, cause I think about it. I’m like, I don’t know if I’m going to remember the lyric and then I forget the lyrics.

Sarah Taylor: Is that where you just stylistically back away from the microphone and hope that the crowd fills in for you?

Chris Cleveland: You would think, but no, because I’m awkward. So, I stopped the show and I tell, and I tell them exactly what’s going on. And I’m like, guys, I’m playing some sort of roulette in my brain when this bridge comes up and it only comes in right when it happens. Sometimes it does, and sometimes it doesn’t and tonight it didn’t. And then I’m like, does anyone know the lyrics? And then you just keep going.

Sarah Taylor: But I feel like, and correct me if I’m wrong, but I feel like that would create even a better moment, a more memorable moment. Cause it’s what we call a pattern interrupter. So, someone is now going to pay more attention to the lyrics of that bridge because you stop.

Chris Cleveland: Exactly. So sometimes it works. Now I have a theory that that only works if you don’t do it every time, because, eh, and then you have to kill it when you come out of it. Like if you screw up a song and stop it, you’ve got to be phenomenal coming out of it because otherwise it just looks lazy. But I think I, I, I’ve kind of figured out a way to where I can endear myself to people when I screw up. And, and sometimes they like me better for it, but a pattern interrupter, is that what you called it?

Sarah Taylor: Yeah.

Chris Cleveland: Yeah. That’s smart. That’s probably some science behind it.

Sarah Taylor: There is science behind it. Something about when you do that, they, they pay more attention to what comes after.

Chris Cleveland: Well, I’m just going to mess up all my songs from now on and just start putting on the record.

Sarah Taylor: No, thank you. It looked like you were getting ready to play something.

Chris Cleveland: Yeah. Let me see. Okay. This is a song called already loved. It’s like my, you are love version two. I love this song.

You don’t have to try to change. He’s always been this way.

I screwed up the cords, but you get it. I like that song. That one’s really fun to play. It’s like it the record is like, so poppy. So, we’ve got from real pop songs to to some worship stuff. I cut some songs that like, Bethel, that I’ve written for other people like Bethel, or Mav City, that kind of thing. And so it’s kind of a fun record.

Sarah Taylor: Who are some of your favorite people to collaborate with right now?

Chris Cleveland: There’s a guy. He and I kind of did this whole record together. His name’s Jeff Sojka. He’s a producer in town. He’s kind of on a ton and ton of stuff. He’s having a moment now. And, and honestly, my other friend of mine, he and I collaborate on a lot of songs, his name is Jeff Pardo, and he’s like every number one song in the last year has been Pardo. Which is nice, cause he’s an insane writer and has been doing it for a long, long, long time. And so, he’s finally having, having a moment, which is awesome. And then, yeah, I wrote with people, I probably write three or four times a week, you know, with, with different people for other things. And so, there’s a lot of people I really, really love writing with, and it’s fun to write for other people and not myself all the time.

Sarah Taylor: Tell me why that is.

Chris Cleveland: I don’t know. Sometimes there’s more pressure on you when it’s your thing, and you feel like you’ve got to, like, come up with it. And so, taking someone else’s vision and kind of crafting that one, takes the pressure off, and two, it’s, it’s kind of fun to come angle that maybe somebody else didn’t see. So, I’m usually like the pop guy and a country room, or the pop guy in a worship room, or something like that. So, I bring a little bit different vibe to everything going on, which is really fun.

Sarah Taylor: I heard once, tell me if this is true with pop music, people’s attention spans, we all know this are generally way shorter than they were, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years. Do you have to take that into account when you’re writing? What’s it called a top line? What’s the thing at the very beginning?

Chris Cleveland: Yeah. I think, well, you want to get like the old sayings, like don’t bore us. Get us to the chorus, kind of thing, you know?

So, you want to hook like as quickly as possible. And so like, let’s see if I go through my songs like the time, I bet you, I have eight songs on my record that are less than three minutes. I mean they’re fast, or short. You know, when you look back at like catalogs of music, like I think Elvis, like the average Elvis song was 2 45 ish somewhere in there.

Somebody can fact check me, but like Beatle songs, like they averaged under three minutes. You know, some of the biggest songs that we’ve ever heard are all pretty quick. We kind of forgot about it because, we’ve got like a free bird and stuff that are like 19 minutes long, but a lot of the pop songs have always been pretty short. Yeah.

Sarah Taylor: What is it about our brains that connects with pop music like this, where, you know, it feels like candy to our brain. It’s like, it’s what is that?

Chris Cleveland: I don’t know, but it does it for me. I’m sure not everybody feels that way, but when I hear like a really well-written pop song, it’s, it’s like the endorphins go off, you know what I mean? It’s and it makes me feel a certain way. And that’s why I love it. And that’s why I kind of resonate with it. Really great. I’m sure people do the same with country or you know, R and B or rap or whatever it is, rock music. I don’t necessarily with all those, but it’s a melodic thing for me. And so even in some of those other genres, if the melody hits me, right, I’d be like, ah, perfect song.

I also think listening to music for me, is one of these things, it’s one of the most accessible things that you can do for the very first time, over and over again. So, like to listen to someone’s brand new song or someone’s brand new album and experience something for the first time. How many other things in life can you experience for the first time?

Like not a lot. And so, it’s one of my favorite things just to sit, take a second. Like I won’t listen. If somebody comes out with a new record, I won’t listen to it until I can sit down. Like listen to the whole thing, and cause I want to experience it. And I, I put a lot of weight into my first kind of impressions of music.

Sarah Taylor: Well, then I would imagine with this new record that comes out April 29th, that you’ve taken, if that’s how you listen to music, then you must have taken great care in your arrangement of a person that’s choosing to listen to this album in that way.

Chris Cleveland: I did. Yeah, I think more so than any record I’ve done so far. I took a lot of time to figure out, like how I wanted the songs place. And I have pitched this around with the label and I don’t know if they’re all do it for me or not, but what’s really cool about this record, and I’ll throw this out there right now, you can listen to a one to 13 and it feels a certain way and tells a certain story, I think. You can listen 13 to one, and it’s a totally different experience. And so, like I almost wanted to do like a double record, like grace and wilderness and have them flip the the arrangements, track numbers. And then you could listen through it backwards and get a totally different vibe. But it still tells the same story, I think, which is really cool.

Sarah Taylor: Which is?

Chris Cleveland: Oh man, it’s kind of a journey. It’s like, I’ll pull up the, the titles of the songs. So, the first song is a song of already released a song called this is love, which to me is like this person who is just like a recognizing what, what this force is in their lives. And then we kind of go through these levels of like, what love is and how, you know, it affects them and like, is it possible for me to live into this? You know, and what does that look like? And then kind of the, the joy and peace that comes with that. And, and it kind of walks us all the way through this journey of discovery. Of living into it. Of like seeing God move. And then we wind up on that grace in the wilderness, where we can find God with us even through hard times. And so, it’s kind of this reciprocal thing kind of like life when it’s like, oh, this is, this is something special. It feels really good. Oh, even if it feels, even if we get into a bad place, now we know what it is and we can find it again. So, it’s kind of cool.

Sarah Taylor: Have you already shared track 13 with us yet today?

Chris Cleveland: That was a Grace in the Wilderness one.

Sarah Taylor: Okay.

Chris Cleveland: Grace, grace in the wood or names?

Sarah Taylor: Yeah. That was the title track.

Chris Cleveland: It is. And it’s the last song on the record.

Sarah Taylor: I don’t know why I assumed that would be first. You’re giving us a good education today. Maybe everybody else already knew that. So thanks for your patience.

Chris Cleveland: They didn’t know that I haven’t said that at all, but I also feel like if I put the title track last and people are going to listen through and figure out why, and hopefully they kind of feel the story arc and that with it. I want you to listen to the songs that don’t make the, re like if you’re a fan and, and I love the radio single thing because it lets me do this whole thing, but there’s a lot of songs on the records I love, but you never get to listen to if you just listen to radio. So my hope is you love what you hear on the radio and it brings you to the record. And then you say, why do you call this grace in the wilderness? Oh. Let me, it’s the last song on the record? Let me check this whole record out. You know, how did we get there?

Sarah Taylor: I remember, I don’t know, maybe, it couldn’t have been a decade ago, maybe like eight, seven or eight years ago or something at the momentum events. It was when you did, it might’ve been your load. It might’ve been heaven on earth. I know in the middle of the set you did doc solid.

Chris Cleveland: That would have been yeah, like 2015. Yeah. Sort of been seven years ago. And we did, you are loved, I’m walking like giants and doxology.

Sarah Taylor: The doxology moment was powerful. I had never heard that song done that way before.

Chris Cleveland: That was birthed out of the church I was working at. I was a worship leader at a big mega church, is a Methodist church. And our traditional service every Sunday did the doxology with full choir orchestra, everybody. Every Sunday they did it, and I thought, wouldn’t it be cool to take this? Like, Thing that we’re so accustomed to and give my service, something like that. And so, I just gave it a little new spin. I wrote this, the other verses to it, which were really just a basic story of who God is and what he’s done for us added the Hallelujah chorus. And, and it started taking off in the church and has been a really great song to sing. I love singing it live. The interesting part for me, if you come see me live, is like you get the pop stuff, but I grew up leading worship and doing those things. So, a lot of times, if I have time, I love diving into those things. We may, we go way back too. So, I’ll play, you know, some hymns for your grandma, and everybody. So, we dive, we dive way deep.

Sarah Taylor: Do you enjoy putting together the production of a live show?

Chris Cleveland: One of my favorite things. Like when I’m done and no one wants to listen to me saying, I felt like I, I would really enjoy doing it for other people.

Sarah Taylor: Tell me some of the things that go through your mind, what you think makes great production of a live show, experience.

Chris Cleveland: Intentionality. It depends on like where you are in the scale. Like, if you’re doing a big show, you need to be very intentional with what you’re doing. Then I think like, connection is, is the biggest thing, right. Especially in our market. So, we’ve got things like, winter jam, or hits deep, or those things, these bigger arena things. Right? And you see somebody who’s so great, like, for King, or Tauren, or Toby, right? They’re so good live. And they do that thing so well, but then there’s something really special about like the 300 people in a church that, that I play a whole bunch, and being able to walk out with an acoustic guitar, sit down at a piano and just talk. And, and connect more. And people can walk out of those more impacted than, than the craziness of the big arena shows. And so I approached both of those things, very, very different, you know, I, I wouldn’t let myself for a second, forget a lyric and an arena show, but w but when I can, when I can turn it into a connection point on a, on a smaller show and it’s a way for people to get to know me, you know, just becomes one more place where we can connect.

And what I’ve found in our, in our world is that people want to hear the song. They’d like to hear the story. And they’d like to connect with us. More than, more than be entertained a lot of times. And so, the balance is kind of figuring both of those things out, but intentionality and connection, I think are the two biggest things.

Sarah Taylor: When you go a concert with an artist or a band that you just love, are you able to enjoy it just like a regular person or do you just, is your mind exploding?

Chris Cleveland: I rarely am able to enjoy it. There’ve been a couple, there’ve been a couple of concerts. I just don’t go. There’ve been a couple of concerts. I’ve really enjoyed. But, but it’s very rare. I’m in the weeds somewhere dumb, you know?

Sarah Taylor: You’re like producing it or wondering why they did a certain thing and you’re just thinking, analyzing the whole thing.

Chris Cleveland: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It’s like, if you’re an accountant and you’re in somebody’s books and you’re just like, why did they, why did they put that number there? That’s what I’m thinking.

Sarah Taylor: Oh, can you share just off the top of your head, what’s one of the best produce shows you’ve ever seen?

Chris Cleveland: One of my favorite shows I’ve ever seen was a imagine dragons show. And I actually just bought tickets for their new, for their new tour. I haven’t seen him in years and years. He was a great singer. I’m a vocalist. Like people have to be able to sing for me to really love it. And so, he’s got a really unique voice. It was good. The production was good. The band was great. So, every one of my favorites. I feel like I saw rascal Flatts like years ago and they were really great. I saw U2 once and I thought, I think Bono might be the worship leader in heaven.

Sarah Taylor: Oh, my word, yes! Yesterday my husband was painting our bathroom. He had a playlist on, and a U2 song came on, and then he said something like you. Well, what’s your favorite U2 song? And I said, where the streets have no name. And he’s like, that’s mine too. And so, he turned it on and he goes, I think this is what plays, when you walk up to the gates of heaven. Like, do you know how I said, you know how, like the Mariners have like batting music? Like when you walk up to take at bat, I feel like this is what’s going to play when we walk up to meet the Lord.

Chris Cleveland: I hope it does. I hope it does. Maybe we all get our own favorite song. That’d be fine.

Sarah Taylor: The other one I said to him that I wanted was I’m where I belong by Switchfoot.

Chris Cleveland: Ah, there you go. See, Switchfoot puts such, I went and saw them with NEEDTOBREATHE the other day. Man, they still put on a show. Unbelievable. They were great.

Sarah Taylor: Will you play us out with just a chorus or one last thing? And it’ll play us out into the credit seer from your new record.

Chris Cleveland: Ooh. Yes, He does, still heal the broken… Thanks for coming to my Ted talk. Thanks for having me.

Sarah Taylor: Well, Chris, thank you so much.

Sarah Taylor: I think one of my favorite things is when we interview someone, and they have their instrument just right there. Thank you to Chris Cleveland from Stars Go Dim. Thank you to Brian Thiel from Curb Word, for setting this up. Of course, Scott Karow, our fabulous producer. And you, for listening to the Passion Meets Purpose podcast, we’ve got all the show notes for you. You can find everything you need it onpurposely.com. I’ll see you in two weeks.

Special thanks to Northwest University for sponsoring the Passion Meets Purpose Podcast. NU is a faith-based and Christ-centered community, offering undergraduate and graduate programs in person and online. At Northwest University, your future isn’t canceled, it’s just beginning.