Sloane has a dream to go to Harvard Law School and become a lawyer. Jack has been there and is ready to share practical wisdom with Sloane. But, where does the Holy Spirit fit in? How do you know where the Holy Spirit is leading? Let’s all learn how we can better trust God on our journey.
Find Out More:
CRISTA Senior Living | King’s Schools | CRISTA Media | CRISTA Ministries
Transcription:
Sherri Lynn:
Have you ever wished you could know what the future held before you got there? What if you were given the gift of knowledge before you even began your journey? Now I’ve been thinking about that, because I made a lot of stupid mistakes when I was younger, and I wish I had someone to say, “Don’t go down that road. Go down this one.” I’m Sherri, and welcome to From the Eyes of Wisdom, where we are pairing an experienced elder from Crista Senior Living with a passionate King’s High School student ready to launch into the world. And while these conversations won’t tell the future exactly, they did reveal a lot we weren’t expecting about how to live life well. Are you ready? I can’t wait for you to hear this.
Welcome to From The Eyes of Wisdom, I am your host, Sherri Lynn. And here we are, another episode, and I have Jack here and Sloane, and this is going to be great because we’re talking law and it’s almost all going to go over my head, but that’s okay because they’re going to know what they’re talking about and it’s going to be exciting. Thank you guys for joining us.
Sloane:
Thank you for having me.
Sherri Lynn:
Sloane, you are on mock trial. Is it mock trial? Is that what it’s called, mock trial?
Sloane:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. So I’m watching your pre-interview and I felt like she’s probably a shark. Are you a shark when it comes to the mock trial?
Sloane:
I try to be.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. You go for the kill, right?
Sloane:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay, so you love doing that.
Sloane:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
Where did the love of law or wanting to be a lawyer come from? Because if I’m correct, your mother is a pharmacist?
Sloane:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. So is it just you like to argue? Do you like to debate? Where did it come from?
Sloane:
Yeah, I just love to argue. I think I got it from my mom. She’s a very argumentative person.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. Hopefully she’s watching. Okay, good.
Sloane:
Yeah, I think I got it from my mom.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. All right. So you love law and you’re really interested in going into law.
Sloane:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
Right. And you love mock trial?
Sloane:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. So Jack, you did not grow up saying, “I’m going to be a lawyer.”
Jack:
That’s right. I did not.
Sherri Lynn:
All right. And even when you got your law degree, I was fascinated by your story because I’m like, it seems as if you use this phrase, so I’m going to use it. You use the phrase that you’re independently poor?
Jack:
That’s correct.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. Instead of independently rich, it seems as if you chose very meaningful work that was not going to make you a wealthy man, even though you went to Harvard Law. Is that fair to say?
Jack:
That’s true. That’s true.
Sherri Lynn:
That’s fair to say.
Jack:
I had two very expensive graduate educations and I wasted both of them. The other one was I had a year Russian at the Army Language School in Monterey, California. That cost Uncle Sam a lot of money.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. And you went to Russian School?
Jack:
Yeah, I was schooled at the end, but if you don’t use it, you lose it.
Sherri Lynn:
Can you still speak Russian? Not at all?
Jack:
Oh, I know words.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay, but could you speak a fluent sentence in Russian?
Jack:
I’ll give you one.
Sherri Lynn:
Let’s have it.
Jack:
Okay. At Easter time we say Christ is risen. He’s risen indeed.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay.
Jack:
In English, that sounds like you’re reading out of a phone book. In Russian, it really rings a bell. [foreign language 00:03:46].
Sherri Lynn:
Yes, he has. Amen. All right, good. All right. So you got that, and then you had the law degree. When I was reading, or listening to rather, your story, there was something to be said, and I really do think you need to hear this, Sloane, about mentorship, and I don’t even know if you were really going down that road, but at every step in your life, whether it was… Your undergrad, was it Dartmouth? Am I right? Yes, okay. So at every step of your life it was like, “Well, I had a coach here and then they told me this, but if I didn’t have a coach or someone didn’t tell me something, then I didn’t know that I should have did this and I shouldn’t…” The importance of having someone in your life to tell you that’s not the way this is.
Jack:
Yes. In the army, I had a coach. I got to law school and I didn’t have enough sense to get me a coach.
Sherri Lynn:
Right. So you need a coach. That’s very important.
Jack:
When you get to law school, get with somebody that’s a second or third year student and get in tight with them and have them coach you, because you have moved into a very extraordinary village. The brightest village you’ll probably ever be in, and it has its own customs and rules and regulations, and you better find out what they are instead of just doing it the way I did, by… I can’t imagine now why I was so naive that I thought the army was going to be tricky, but law school wasn’t.
Sherri Lynn:
That’s a good point. Now, something you said about the army, just briefly I want to say, because it was a good piece of advice your coach said, which was always volunteer. I like that. When I heard it, I was like, “That makes sense, volunteer.”
Jack:
Because when you volunteer, you get to choose what you’re going to do.
Sloane:
Yeah.
Sherri Lynn:
Instead of somebody telling you, “Go over there and do that.” Yeah. You volunteer. Now, let me ask you this about your story, because I was a little confused. He went to Harvard, which is where you want to go, right?
Sloane:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay, so you went to Harvard Law. There’s a moment where you are meeting with the dean of Stanford?
Jack:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. And he tells you something about the importance of where you go and what you do.
Jack:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
Did you do the opposite of his…
Jack:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. I thought you did, Jack, but I just wanted to make sure. Okay, so can you give her the advice?
Jack:
Sure.
Sherri Lynn:
But you did the opposite.
Jack:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
I just want to be clear.
Jack:
When I was in The Army Language School at Monterey, California, I called up Stanford, got connected with the dean, Dean Spaeth, and made an appointment with him to meet with him at seven o’clock on a Friday evening while I was on my way driving to San Francisco for the weekend. I don’t have any idea why he agreed to meet at seven o’clock on a Friday evening, but we met and he said, “Now every year they come out with standings of the law schools,” and he could afford to be scornful about this because Stanford is usually in the top three, and he says, “This is an academic game.” He said, “The real question is where do you get the best legal education? And the best legal education is not to be found at Harvard. It’s in the law review of any one of the top 15 law schools in the nation. You’re better off going to Boulder, Colorado and being on the Rocky Mountain Law Review than you are in going to Harvard and getting a C.” So I went to Harvard and got a C plus.
Sherri Lynn:
All right. So you’re at Harvard?
Jack:
Yeah, I’m at Harvard.
Sherri Lynn:
Can you talk about education? I don’t know if they do this anymore. I’m not sure. This is not to be offensive to your generation, but I’m not sure a generation could take what you call education by trauma.
Jack:
Yeah.
Sherri Lynn:
Do they still do that? Do you know?
Jack:
Oh, you better believe it.
Sherri Lynn:
They do?
Jack:
Oh yeah.
Sherri Lynn:
Well, you better tell her about it.
Jack:
Let me give you an example.
Sherri Lynn:
All right.
Jack:
First class, first day torts. First case, ADS and wife from 1114, something like that. First words, Abbott, CB. Okay. 125 people in the classroom. They were 625 in the school. No, in our class. It’s the largest daytime law school in the country. You can throw a stone in that class and your chances be about one out of 10, you’ll hit a valedictorian. Okay? So it’s a very elite group, and professor calls on a person. By the way, you go into class the first day, 125 in the classroom, the professor knows you all by name. He has a seating chart, and he’s got the seating chart memorized. So he says… I don’t know your last name yet.
Sherri Lynn:
Ruxilla.
Jack:
Huh?
Sherri Lynn:
Ruxilla.
Jack:
Ruxilla. Okay. “Ms. Ruxilla, what does CB stand for?” You don’t know.
Sherri Lynn:
Right.
Jack:
Nobody in the class raises his hand.
Sherri Lynn:
Right.
Jack:
And he says, “CB stands for Chief Baron.” There he’s just convicted 125 of these hot shots that they don’t know how to read.
Sherri Lynn:
Because they wouldn’t have known that.
Jack:
Well, you’ve got to look it up.
Sherri Lynn:
They would’ve had material ahead… Forgive me, I wouldn’t… They would’ve had that material ahead of time.
Jack:
Oh yeah.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay.
Jack:
Well, the savvy ones, and this the army helped me. I had enough sense to look at the bulletin board and find out what the assignment was a day early and CDS and wife, it was only about that long. I read it in 11 seconds and I read it a second time and I thought, “Jeez, nothing here.”
Sherri Lynn:
And it had Chief Baron in it.
Jack:
Well, that was what the first word was, Abbot CB.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay.
Jack:
So in your graduate schools, law, business, medicine, the chief method of teaching is problem solving. And Harvard started it off in I think the 1860s, with what they call the case method. You’re reading all the time, you’re reading case problems, and then you come into class and the professor may ask you to state the case or argue the case. He may give you the choice of taking the defense or the prosecution. It doesn’t make any difference which one you take. He will spear you.
Sherri Lynn:
Spear you?
Jack:
Yeah.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. Like a spear into you, like stab you. Okay, got it. I just wanted make sure I was understanding what you were saying.
Jack:
Now, the result of this, I mean, actually you’re constantly in a pretty emotional situation, because it’s threatening.
Sherri Lynn:
Yes. I feel threatened.
Jack:
But I can remember almost nothing of what I learned in college. I can remember a lot of stuff very vividly from law school. So the teaching method works.
Sherri Lynn:
But it’s…
Jack:
But it’s painful.
Sherri Lynn:
Yes. What do you think about what you just heard, because that’s what you want to go through? Does that sound exciting to you?
Sloane:
Yeah. Cold calling. That’s what they call it. Modern day times. My mock trial teacher last year did that, and that’s how I remember most of the stuff.
Jack:
So you’ve been there already.
Sherri Lynn:
Tell me how it went down.
Sloane:
I mean, it was kind of like if you knew the answer, you knew the answer. If you didn’t, she moved on to someone else and you learned the answer by… Because she’ll ask you again.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay, and was there anything in you that… Did it feel traumatic or it felt like, “Okay, that means I got to step my game up.”
Sloane:
It made me want to step my game up.
Sherri Lynn:
Make you want to step your game up. Okay. Well, that’s the point, right? And to keep it in your memory because it was an emotionally traumatic experience.
Jack:
Now I have one really good takeaway from law school.
Sherri Lynn:
Got it. Okay.
Jack:
Okay.
Sherri Lynn:
Yeah.
Jack:
This is how we should be teaching scripture.
Sherri Lynn:
Ah, okay. Yeah.
Jack:
You take ordinary problems, procrastination, for example. What does scripture tell us about that?
Sherri Lynn:
So you look it up.
Jack:
Yeah.
Sherri Lynn:
Like in a concordance, or…
Jack:
Well, now we got our tools in our cell phone with the…
Sherri Lynn:
Bible app.
Jack:
Gateway Bible and Blue Letter Bible.
Sherri Lynn:
Blue Letter Bible’s my favorite.
Jack:
And you come up… In that way, if you do a year’s study like that, you end up having the Bible arranged topically in your head. Now, the way we study the Bible now, is we do it book by book.
Sherri Lynn:
That’s right.
Jack:
Which is a very interesting way to do it.
Sherri Lynn:
That’s a good point.
Jack:
But coming out of my Lutheran background, they say the book, the Bible is the rule and norm of life. That’s a very good analysis, but we don’t learn the Bible that way. We don’t learn that the Bible can deal with practical problems and give us very sound advice, wonderful advice from the Lord. So the case message is the way we ought to be learning the Bible.
Sherri Lynn:
You know what, Jack? That makes a lot of sense, because it then goes back to where is that? Is that in… Oh, Jack, am I right? Is it 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, “Rightly dividing the word of truth.” That’s what that sounds like to me.
Jack:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
You would take the word of truth and you would divide it based on, “Hey, Sloane, that’s pretty good.” She’s going to need that, and you are going to need that now, nowadays, but specifically when you get into college, undergrad and grad, is to be able to rightly divide the word of truth. What I’m going through right now, does God’s word have something to say about that? What does it have to say about that? And then looking that up. I’ll usually give this to them later to tell them to write down words of wisdom from you. I never thought about that because growing up it was… First of all, you learn the books of the Bible, right? Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. You learn that as a kid, vacation Bible school, and then you do read as… You read Genesis, Exodus, you read it like that, but using it as case study or words or things that you’re going through that does make sense. That’s a good nugget.
Jack:
There’s a good legal word that deals with this.
Sherri Lynn:
All right.
Jack:
The verb is to parse
Sherri Lynn:
To parse
Jack:
P-A-R-S-E.
Sherri Lynn:
Parse
Jack:
To parse a contract.
Sherri Lynn:
Write that down Sloane, to parse.
Jack:
To parse a contract, for example. You know when it says how it applies the responsibilities of each party and so on. And you also know what it doesn’t say and what it doesn’t cover. Okay?
Sherri Lynn:
That’s good too.
Jack:
Yes. Now John Calvin could parse scripture, which is pretty amazing, because that’s the process that I’m talking about. And he didn’t have all these aids that we got using this method of problem solving in scripture. After a while, you can begin to parse the Bible.
Sherri Lynn:
Yeah, that really is. I mean, if you could take scripture like that, Sloane, your life will be… It will revolutionize your life. It really would. The little things like… Well, I don’t want to get into my life, but I have done things like that just because my grandfather was a preacher, and so he taught us things like that so that I know a little more scripture. I’m not saying I lived it. I’m saying I knew it just because he taught us like that. So that is a good nugget.
You do that during your college years. Start now. You’ll be well ahead of the game. Something that you said, because I want to get into a little bit of life stuff. You said something and you said it in passing, but it stuck with me, Jack. It was a story you told, and I have it in my phone. That’s why I have my phone up because when you said it, I typed it down. You are in New England and I think you’re still in law school and you’re working. What are you doing? You’re on the docks. What are you doing with sailboats? What are you…
Jack:
Oh, I was a sailing instructor.
Sherri Lynn:
Sailing instructor. Okay.
Jack:
Oh, okay. You want that story, huh?
Sherri Lynn:
Yeah, because you said something about our personalities when we’re young that I’d like you to hear Sloane, because you did something that I did a double take on. Like, “Why would he do that?” And then I thought when you said, “That’s how twenty-year-olds are,” and I thought, “Oh yeah, that actually was how I was when I was 20.” And so it’s a dark and stormy night…
Jack:
It’s a dark and stormy night.
Sherri Lynn:
Take it from there.
Jack:
[inaudible 00:18:30]. I was bringing in the club launch, which was about a 18-foot boat, and this guy on the dock was a hiring partner from New York law firm, and I brought the launch in quite skillfully and landed it well and threw him the painter, the ball line, and he snubbed it around a pile. And as I’m getting out of the boat, he says, “You’re at Harvard Law?” And I said, “Yes.” And he said, “Well, next time you’re in Manhattan, look me up.” So there I had a shot at getting with a major New York law firm, but our personalities in our twenties in some ways are brittle, I think.
Sherri Lynn:
That’s what I typed down, brittle.
Jack:
I took this as an insult.
Sherri Lynn:
Why?
Jack:
He didn’t ask me anything about what I was studying at Harvard Law or anything like that, but because I’d landed the launch skillfully, he was willing to interview me? See, what I didn’t realize was that landing a boat well in a storm is probably a better indicator for your ability as a lawyer than the stuff at the law school. But I didn’t know that then.
Sherri Lynn:
Right, and so what struck me about it, because when he said he took offense to it, I was like, “Oh, why would you?” And then I thought of myself in my twenties and I was like, “Yep. I would’ve did the exact same thing.” I would’ve messed up an opportunity based on what I would think for myself, you would probably qualify it as the same as an immature thought.
Jack:
Yeah.
Sherri Lynn:
Yeah. And so if in your twenties you can maybe… I don’t know that there’s any way to get around immaturity other than surround yourself with wisdom and say… That’s the only way you can really identify, I think, maybe an immature thought is that you’ve heard wisdom and say… Because you have the initial, “Why would you ask me that when I helped you get into this? Ask me about what I…” And then you have some wisdom that says, “Don’t think about that. The man is offering you an interview. Take the interview.” You see what I’m saying? So I love that story and I thought that was important because as you start to get older and have more opportunities, definitely in your twenties, for me anyway, your attitude, our attitudes and our emotions can definitely mess up some really great opportunities. So let me ask you this. I’m going to ask you, Sloane, can you remember the last time you felt really discouraged?
Sloane:
Yes, I can. I’m on cheer and our cheer team goes to UCA Camp, United Cheer Association Camp. Okay. I tried out for All American. I didn’t make All American, and I took that pretty hard.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay.
Sloane:
Took it pretty personal.
Sherri Lynn:
Yeah. Okay. And what did that look like for you? Was that crying? Was that depression? Was that, “I don’t want to talk to anybody.” What did that look like in your life, the discouragement?
Sloane:
Crying.
Sherri Lynn:
Crying?
Sloane:
Definitely.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. And then a day, two days.
Sloane:
Yeah. I don’t know. I had a great mentor, really helped me through it and gave me good scripture to go back to. Proverbs 31:25.
Sherri Lynn:
Which says?
Sloane:
“She is clothed with strengths and dignity and she can laugh with no fear of the future.”
Sherri Lynn:
Me and Jack are impressed. Yeah, Jack and I like that. Very good. Okay, two questions. The first question is… And here’s why I’m asking because I was listening to your pre-interview and finance played a big part in law, right? Like, “Hey, I’d like to make a couple dollars, right? I ain’t mad at you.” So to choose that’s a choice to say, I have a law degree and I can practice law, and that would put me in another income bracket and to choose to go into nonprofit, I’m wondering, number one, why? Did you feel like that was a call? Did you feel like that was something that God had purposed to you to do? Did you feel specific calling?
Jack:
Yes.
Sherri Lynn:
You did. And then what part, if any, did your law degree play in it or your knowledge of law play into that? Did you use it at all, or was it not really even a factor in the work that you chose to do or the work that you felt like God called you to do?
Jack:
I did something much more difficult in the average law career, starting from nothing, went into development of quality, affordable, low-income housing in the lowest-income community in Cincinnati without need for direct public funding.
Sherri Lynn:
That’s the real deal.
Jack:
Yeah. And I was into that for I think 19 years.
Sherri Lynn:
Wow.
Jack:
And got married, raised family.
Sherri Lynn:
Did you ever feel financially secure or was it always…
Jack:
Oh.
Sherri Lynn:
That’s the answer. That’s good.
Jack:
That’s the answer to that one.
Sherri Lynn:
That’s the answer. I got it.
Jack:
It was a very strong leading, I guess. I felt this was what I needed to do.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay. Sloane?
Sloane:
Yeah.
Sherri Lynn:
Be a lawyer. Have your suit on, pink suit, ready, ready, ready. Feel that leading inside, “Hey, I want you to go work in non-profit for $28,000 a year.” Are you still holding on this?
Jack:
She’s talking big money.
Sherri Lynn:
Jack says, “Now that’s a paycheck.” Can you feel yourself saying, “Okay, God.” Now that’s a lot to ask when you’re in 10th grade, so you don’t have to answer it now. I’m just saying, here’s a man who had that Harvard Law and all of that, feels a strong leading, and that’s the path God led him on. I
Sloane:
I sure hope so.
Sherri Lynn:
Okay.
Sloane:
I mean, I hope I’m called by God to do something and if it’s law, it’s law. If it’s not, it’s not. I know when I turn 18, I want to try to get my real estate license, and my dad currently owns a duplex and it’s a non-profit at this point, because he’s very generous. He’s someone that realizes emergencies happen, family, getting food on the table comes before paying your rent, and so he’s very generous. I’d like to take that and turn it into something like a non-profit.
Sherri Lynn:
I got to close out, guys. Before I do that, I want to.. Two questions. Jack, let me ask you, in life, do you have any regrets?
Jack:
No serious regrets.
Sherri Lynn:
No serious regrets.
Jack:
No. My life, I’ve had a marvelous life, a very unusual life, and I’m very content with it, and I’m ready to go whenever the Lord wants to take me.
Sherri Lynn:
Oh my gosh. There is nothing better in life than that. I will tell you, Sloane. If you could sit somewhere and say, “You know what? I don’t have any regrets, and anytime God is ready, so am I,” that is a wonderful life led and I honor you for that, sir.
Jack:
Thank you.
Sherri Lynn:
So, okay, Sloane, get the piece of paper. You already wrote some stuff. She’s going to have that sitting over there in Harvard, shaking in her boots, trying to remember everything Jack said. “What did he say? I don’t know what to do now. I don’t know what to do.” If you had one piece of advice, not just for law, not just for law school, for life, for her, one piece of advice, she’s going to write it on that piece of paper. She is going to carry that piece of paper with her through life. She’s going to have it just walk down the aisle. She’s going to have it in her little purse with her wedding dress. She’s going to have it in the maternity ward. She’s going to have it everywhere she goes. This one piece of advice from Jack, no pressure.
Jack:
I know the answer to that.
Sherri Lynn:
Let’s have it. You ready?
Sloane:
Yes.
Jack:
Do you know about baptism and the Holy Spirit?
Sherri Lynn:
Ooh.
Sloane:
Yeah.
Jack:
Okay, good. Learn to do what the Holy Spirit leads you to do.
Sherri Lynn:
Follow the Holy Spirit is… I have a jacket and all this on, but you could see goosebumps if I showed you. There is no better advice than that. That is my whole life, is follow the Holy Spirit. It’s the reason why I’m sitting on this couch and not in a casket somewhere, is follow the Holy Spirit. If you don’t take… I promise you, take that piece of paper and that will guide you through everything, is follow the Holy Spirit. And it may not be an audible voice. It may not… But if your heart is open to hearing, He will lead you. That’s… I’m going to end there before I end up in a pile of tears. That’s this episode of From the Eyes of Wisdom. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you to Jack and Sloane.
