The Cast of the Christmas Story: The Angel of the Lord

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Mark Holland:

The cast of the Christmas story series is sponsored by World Concern and the Global Gift Guide. Find out more at globalgiftguide.org.

Narrator:

The cast of the Christmas story.

Mark Holland:

And we have a special guest today, a pastor leading us in the discussion of the angel of the Lord, an interesting character in the Christmas story. We’ll be talking about this particular angel, maybe some other instances of angelic activity in the scripture in general. But we have with us today Kim Martinez. She’s the group pastor at Shoreline Community Church in well, Shoreline. Hi there, Kim.

Kim Martinez:

Hi. Thank you very much for having me here.

Mark Holland:

And this is your first time doing radio or doing podcasting or anything?

Kim Martinez:

It is.

Mark Holland:

It is. Okay. Well, are you scared? Are you going to be able to…

Kim Martinez:

I’m good.

Mark Holland:

You’re good. You came in with lots of notes. You’ve got your cell phone and we’ve been doing a lot of prep before we started rolling tape here today or rolling not tape, but the computer and the way things work these days. But Kim, tell us a little bit about your involvement at Shoreline Community Church. What exactly is a group pastor?

Kim Martinez:

I lead the discipleship team and help… A pastor’s job is to prepare God’s people for acts of service. So I help bring people into groups, help them…

Mark Holland:

Small groups or home groups?

Kim Martinez:

Small groups, home groups, classes on Sunday. And then the discipleship team we help look to where we’re going as a church and that we’re rounding our conversation and not just one-tracking our groups or anything.

Mark Holland:

Who’s head pastor there?

Kim Martinez:

Dwayne Smith.

Mark Holland:

Dwayne Smith. Shoreline Community Church, a long time in the Northwest. Been there many years. I’ve known many people who’ve gone to that church. A really well-known singer, Natalie Grant, who sings on our FM station quite a bit. She’s originally from Shoreline Community Church.

Kim Martinez:

Yes.

Mark Holland:

So great. Our engineer here, Brian Hubert, for many years, he was a part of Shoreline Community Church. You had hymn sings there I know I’ve been involved in, so just a real dynamic church. And not only with this church locally, but you’re also part of your denomination in the Northwest. What do you do with the Assemblies of God?

Kim Martinez:

On the network level I’m on the presbytery, I’m the executive presbytery and then on the national level, I’m part of the Elevate Leadership Network, training women pastors to do what God’s called them to do.

Mark Holland:

So lots of areas of service. And you’ve been with Shoreline for, you said five years or so?

Kim Martinez:

Just about.

Mark Holland:

Just about five years. Okay. Well, Kim, we’re interested in this discussion this week, the angel of the Lord. Why don’t you set up for us this where it appears in Luke chapter two?

Kim Martinez:

Okay, well, the angel of the Lord, I think most of us are most aware of the angel of the Lord when he appears to the shepherds because that’s in every single Christmas play we’ve ever watched.

Mark Holland:

Right, everybody wants to play the angel.

Kim Martinez:

Yes, angel of the Lord.

Mark Holland:

There’s the angel of the Lord but then there’s also the heavenly host, which is a giant group of angels.

Kim Martinez:

Yeah, exactly. And we can go ahead and read that part of scripture if you want.

Mark Holland:

Okay. All right.

Kim Martinez:

And in the same region there were shepherds out in the field. Can’t you just see Charlie Brown dancing back and forth? Keeping watch over their flock by night, and the angel of the Lord appeared to them and the glory of the Lord shone around them and they were filled with great fear. And the angel said to them, fear not, for behold I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all people, for unto you was born this day in the city of David, a Savior who is Christ the Lord. And this will be a sign for you. You will find a baby wrapped in swaddling clothes and lying in a manger. And suddenly there was an angel and a multitude of heavenly hosts praising God and saying, glory to God in the highest and on Earth, peace, among those with whom he is pleased.

When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, let’s go to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us. And they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph and the baby lying in a manger. And when they saw it, they made known the saying that had been told them concerning the child. And all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart.

Mark Holland:

And the angel also appears though obviously before this to her specifically, the same angel told Mary she was going to be with child.

Kim Martinez:

Yes. Actually this angel appears to four different…

Mark Holland:

Several people.

Kim Martinez:

Four different times in this…

Mark Holland:

Tell us about every time this guy appears.

Kim Martinez:

Well, we start in Matthew where he appears to Joseph in a dream. He appears to Joseph twice in a dream. And one of the fun things to look at is that Joseph just says okay and does what he’s told. And then we see in Luke where he appears to Zachariah, which turns out to be John the Baptist’s father. And Zachariah talks back to him a little bit and has an interaction with him. And the angel of the Lord is like…

Mark Holland:

Didn’t appreciate that.

Kim Martinez:

Dude, come on.

Mark Holland:

Said you’re not going to be able to speak until the child’s born.

Kim Martinez:

Yip. And the interesting thing too is that we can tell when he shows up in person, he almost always seems to say, don’t be afraid. So I would think that if an angel appeared to you, it would freak you out a little bit.

Mark Holland:

Yes.

Kim Martinez:

And so when he appeared to Zachariah, even though he’s freaked out a little bit, he’s hearing… He’s logical enough to go, that’s not logical. And then we see him appear to Mary and Mary just says, okay, let God do what God wants to do. And isn’t that how we all want to be?

Mark Holland:

Yeah, it’s the appearance of the angel of the Lord. Do you think they seem to know? Did they know it was an angel? They knew it was…

Kim Martinez:

I think that that was abundantly obvious to them.

Mark Holland:

Because they were afraid because the first thing he says is don’t be afraid.

Kim Martinez:

Exactly.

Mark Holland:

So is he glowing or is he tall or does he have wings? It doesn’t say any of those things. We’ve heard that in extra biblical accounts that they have wings and things like this, but the Bible actually never says that, that they have wings.

Kim Martinez:

No, I think though that we visualize them as going through the air. And that might come from Daniel because I think he says he was going through the air and the air over a certain area was really dense, so it took him a while to get where he was going.

Mark Holland:

So we believe that this angel is the main communicating angel, which is Gabriel. He has an actual name.

Kim Martinez:

Yes. It says in Joseph’s account, I believe. No, it’s in Ezekiel’s or Zachariah’s account that I’m Gabriel.

Mark Holland:

I am Gabriel, actually identifies himself.

Kim Martinez:

In the account with Zachariah.

Mark Holland:

And Gabriel is this angel, this communicating angel that’s found not only in the New Testament but shows up several times in the Old Testament as well.

Kim Martinez:

Yeah. We see him by name in Daniel 8. If you just search on the angel of the Lord, the angel of the Lord comes at key different times throughout the Old Testament.

Mark Holland:

To announce things.

Kim Martinez:

Right. He shows up at the burning bush. And sometimes some theologians think that some of these are Christophanies, but the Bible calls it… Which would be an appearance of Jesus in the Old Testament. But the Bible just says angel of the Lord.

Mark Holland:

The Bible just says angel of the Lord. So obviously no Christophanies per se in the New Testament because the New Testament is about Jesus.

Kim Martinez:

I don’t think that we have a physical presence of Jesus in the New Testament.

Mark Holland:

Right. But in the Old Testament, perhaps sometimes the angel of the Lord is a Christophany.

Kim Martinez:

Right. I’ve heard that most effectively convincingly with the three in the furnace in Daniel, the fourth person was like the son of God, I think it says.

Mark Holland:

That was probably a Christophany.

Kim Martinez:

That was definitely a Christophany. But there’s a few earlier that some people wonder if it was a Christophany.

Mark Holland:

Well, the angel of the Lord even warning Sodom and Gomorrah coming down. And that probably was a Christophany as well there. We don’t know.

Kim Martinez:

Right.

Mark Holland:

That could have been Michael. So there’s three main angels that we hear about in the Bible. Gabriel, Michael and Satan. Satan was called the angel of the Lord.

Kim Martinez:

Yes.

Mark Holland:

Gabriel was the, you said the announcer or the proclaimer?

Kim Martinez:

Yes. The angel of the Lord as a category has a few jobs in the Old Testament, a messenger that we’ve talked about, also means out justice and protects God’s people. And we see in the book of Zechariah chapter three, he intercedes and prays to God. And then we see in Job where the angels were coming in and out of heaven and Satan appears before God and talks to him. And when we think about that and then we think about the angel of the Lord interceding, I think that we can have a picture of angels being God’s physical form going back and forth, his messengers, to get the message out to people. Because I don’t know about you, but I have the Holy Spirit talk to me, but sometimes I need a two by four. And back then the Holy Spirit wasn’t release and so I think that the angel of the Lord went back and forth.

Mark Holland:

A little bit more active.

Kim Martinez:

Had a few more jobs.

Mark Holland:

Because the Holy Spirit wasn’t out yet. Interesting. I think the Bible also uses this term, be careful because you don’t know when you may have been entertaining angels unaware.

Kim Martinez:

Yes.

Mark Holland:

So obviously angels, does that mean that angels could look like people sometimes?

Kim Martinez:

I think so.

Mark Holland:

And people don’t realize it.

Kim Martinez:

Yes. And I want to be careful not to have Hollywood theology. I know that I’ve noticed over the years that some of my understanding of time and space is definitely formed by Star Trek.

Mark Holland:

Well, me too. I’m a Trekkie.

Kim Martinez:

So knowing that angels can come and look like you and I, I think our best guess on what that might be like was Jesus walking on the road to Emmaus and having just talking and answering questions. And they didn’t even realize that they were walking with Jesus until He revealed himself.

Mark Holland:

Definitely a spiritual realm, an angelic realm. We use that term as well, a different dimension that angels are in. And we can take heart because there’s several places in the Bible too where it says there’s a lot more good angels than bad angels. Like Satan again took a third of the angels it says, and rebelled against God.

Kim Martinez:

Which leaves two-thirds.

Mark Holland:

Two-thirds that are still on God’s side led by we assume Michael and Gabriel or just led by Jesus.

Kim Martinez:

And we see Michael show up in the Old Testament… I mean in the Revelation and Jude, particularly named by name there.

Mark Holland:

And Michael too shows up in Daniel where he took him a while to get to Daniel because he was being fought by the Prince of Persia. What does that mean? So there was some kind of fighting going on and it took him a while to answer his prayers.

Kim Martinez:

Right. And we definitely have spiritual realm where there is a battle going on. And I think that sometimes we think we’re supposed to fight the battle when it’s God and the angels that are fighting the battle. And we can trust that God is big enough.

Mark Holland:

God is big enough. He’s got His messengers, He’s got His helpers in His plan. Angels are not people though, they’re a different category. It talks about how the angels long to see the sons of man brought into glory. So they seem to be kind of part of the audience with God of what’s happening in this passion play we call the last… However long we’ve been here. God’s been doing what He’s doing with the Earth.

Kim Martinez:

Yes. And I think that it’s kind of fun to look at the book of Zechariah. It says, the angel of the Lord said, Lord Almighty, how long will you withhold mercy from Jerusalem and from the towns of Judah, which you have been angry with these 70 years? So the Lord spoke kind and comforting words to the angel who talked with me. And to just think that they aren’t automatons. We see the robot men with Doctor Who, sometimes we think of that as angels just doing what God does, what God says. But they have personhood.

Mark Holland:

They seem to have a will also.

Kim Martinez:

Yes. Well, they definitely have a will, but they also personhood to care for us, they’re not just a funnel from God, but they are interacting in the process as well somehow.

Mark Holland:

Do you think everybody has a guardian angel or is that getting too far afield?

Kim Martinez:

I actually am a little concerned about that. I’ve known people who get so into angels that they stop looking at Jesus. And I think that once Jesus died on the cross and was returned to heaven and released the Holy Spirit, that He is with us all the time. We don’t have to… My husband pointed out recently that in the Old Testament we had the pillar of fire by night and the cloud by day when the Israelites were in the desert. Well, in the New Testament in Acts 2, they have the little tongues of fire that are then on each one’s head. And he said, isn’t that interesting that it could be the big pillar of fire and then we had the little fire and God guides us and directs us. I think that He can direct His angels on our behalf, but for us to focus on angels, we miss the whole point.

Mark Holland:

It’s dangerous. In fact, it even uses that warning. Paul talks about if I or someone else preaches a different gospel or an angel preaches a different gospel then shun them, hold them at arms length. And we can… Looking at other things that happened in other religions and other offshoots of Christianity where that was exactly what spurred them on was they claim some kind of angelic visit and then got into all kinds of things that obviously weren’t taught by the Bible. So that’s kind of getting far afield of our discussion today. But yeah, it’s the angel of the Lord, definitely real, angels are real. They’re part of God’s plan. They seem to be part of His end time plan as well. But we aren’t to be too concerned about it.

Kim Martinez:

Now, can’t you just hear the angel’s excitement when he prayed this to God that I just read to you, God, how long are you going to be? And then he sees Jesus showing up and knowing what all this means for humankind.

Mark Holland:

And that’s in Zechariah.

Kim Martinez:

Yeah, in Zechariah three where he says, how long God? And then you see him again in Luke 2 when he shows up to the shepherds proclaiming. It’s like the joy that must have been… We think, oh, and then all the heavenly hosts. And I think a lot of times we just think that it’s like the choir at church. The guy tells him to do it so they did it and he was a soloist. But really he personally was excited. And then the rest of the choir did join in. And it’s a relief to the angels to see this new covenant being born.

Mark Holland:

Yeah, the angels are part of the plan, part of the story, part of the cast of the Christmas story as we’re discussing with Kim Martinez of Shoreline Community Church. The angel of the Lord, a very important character in the cast, one of the definite ones that you see in your crash, in your nativity scene like you say. We’ve talked about a lot of people during this series who weren’t part of the nativity scene proper, but the angel definitely… I have one on my mantle right now. Definitely one of the figures in the nativity scene. So the angel of the Lord, so important.

For people who are listening to this today, Kim, the way that we’ve been closing a lot of these is for you to pray for people who are listening. Maybe people who have questions about Christmas, maybe people who believe in angels, but they don’t believe in Jesus. So they’re kind of thinking that there’s other dimensions, other things. Maybe they’re a Trekkie like you say, and they think that’s what angels are, that there’s some UFO people or whatever, but people who need to follow the Lord and really consider the claims of the Christmas story. Why don’t you pray for those people who are listening right now during this Christmas season?

Kim Martinez:

Lord Jesus, so many of us in the Northwest are spiritual. We believe in other beings, but we’ve missed you. God, I pray that for each one of us that you would make yourself known, make yourself real in our lives. Help us to know you as you are. Help us to see ourselves and other people as you do, not through the eyes of who might hurt me, not through the eyes of what’s right or what’s wrong, but Lord, let us see people as you do, and let us have your love for each other. Lord, I pray that for those who don’t know you, that you would make yourself known. That’s what we need, Lord. We need to know that you are real and reward those who earnestly seek you. And so God, I pray that you would write your name on our hearts and draw us to you.

For those of us who have been Christians for a long time, or maybe we have been around church so long, but we’ve lost that first love. I pray that as we go through this nativity season, that we would be drawn to you in a new way, that you would renew our hearts, renew our ability to see things the way that you do and change us, transform us, so that as we walk in the world around us, you just naturally shine through us. It isn’t about us, what we’re doing, so much as who you are, being through us. In Jesus name, amen.

Mark Holland:

Amen. The cast of the Christmas story series is sponsored by World Concern. You can give a gift with a lifetime of impact. Your gift will meet the critical need of a child or family living in poverty. You can give a goat or 1 of 43 other life-changing gifts today through the World Concern Global Gift Guide. Give life-changing gifts that work together to transform the lives of moms, dads, and children in the world’s poorest places. You can even select a meaningful gift in honor of a friend or loved one. Each gift transforms the life of someone in poverty. Go to globalgiftguide.org. Again, that’s globalgiftguide.org.

Narrator:

Thank you so much for joining us for the cast of the Christmas story, a series on Purposely Equipped. We’d love for you to take a moment and let us know what you think of this series by leaving us a review. For more podcasts to grow your faith, we invite you to visit onpurposely.com. Until next time.