The Cast of the Christmas Story: Quirinius

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Mark Holland:

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Speaker 1:

The Cast of the Christmas Story

Mark Holland:

And in studio, another guest in our series talking about the cast of the Christmas story, and we have Pastor Nick Marnejon.

Nick Marnejon:

Yeah.

Mark Holland:

Did I get that right, Nick?

Nick Marnejon:

That’s right. Yeah.

Mark Holland:

Nick-

Nick Marnejon:

It’s a funky one.

Mark Holland:

It’s a funky one.

He’s the Student Ministries Pastor at Community Christian Fellowship in Edmonds. I think we had another one of your pastors in here too.

Nick Marnejon:

That’s right.

Mark Holland:

I remember when we were going to be airing these in different orders.

What was the other pastor?

Nick Marnejon:

Eric Malone. He’s our Children’s Pastor.

Mark Holland:

Children’s Pastor, okay. And who’s the Head Pastor there?

Nick Marnejon:

Brian Boone.

Mark Holland:

Brian Boone.

Nick Marnejon:

His wife Denise actually works at King’s.

Mark Holland:

Okay.

Nick Marnejon:

Yeah.

Mark Holland:

So been in Edmonds a long time. Tell us a little bit about yourself. You said you’ve been with this church about five years?

Nick Marnejon:

Yeah, I’ve been the Student Ministries Pastor now for five years. I’m married to my wife Taylor. We’ve got two boys, Jude and Theo, and moved here from Texas. But I grew up in the Midwest in Ohio.

Mark Holland:

Okay. How do you like the northwest?

Nick Marnejon:

I think it’s beautiful. It’s wonderful. Texas warmed my blood though, I’ll say that much. So, I like warmth and sun, but I love the [inaudible 00:01:24] beauty.

Mark Holland:

Yeah, talk about warmth. In Texas, 110. I don’t know if I could handle that.

Nick Marnejon:

It’s toasty, yeah. Luckily they all have A/C there, but even then it’s still, you go outside and you start sweating instantly.

Mark Holland:

Well, as we’re listening to these podcasts, hopefully it’s much more mild conditions here in the northwest.

Looking at the cast of the Christmas story you have been assigned… Did you volunteer for this or did somebody ask you to talk about Quirinius?

Nick Marnejon:

Yeah, I volunteered for this one.

Mark Holland:

You volunteered for this one. So you took this one on. An obscure person. Who is Quirinius in the Christmas story?

Nick Marnejon:

We’re getting this from Luke Chapter Two, and I can just read the verses directly. So, it says this in Luke 2:1.

“In those days a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration when Quirinius was Governor of Syria and all went to be registered each to his own town.”

And then it goes on to continue to tell the story there, but that’s all we had right there.

Mark Holland:

That’s all we have about him. And before we started recording this, we both agree that the reason Dr. Luke, who wrote the book, obviously of Luke, he was trying to more the historicity of Christianity and the Christmas story in history.

Nick Marnejon:

Correct.

Mark Holland:

It was real history and real facts.

Nick Marnejon:

Yeah, absolutely. And that was his goal was to show that Jesus was part of history and he’s dating things and trying to show people this is when it was and how it went about, and he’s trying to be very accurate and we know that he is.

Mark Holland:

Yeah. And being a Student Ministry Pastor, these are the kinds of questions you get thrown at you all the time where some smart aleck wants to, “See Jesus wasn’t really a historical person because this doesn’t match up or this isn’t accurate.”

Nick Marnejon:

Exactly.

Mark Holland:

But-

Nick Marnejon:

Well yeah, let me tell you about that.

Mark Holland:

Yeah, tell us about that.

Nick Marnejon:

Quirinius actually presents what we would call a problem historically, and a lot of critical scholars point to this as an error and as Christians, we would hope and pray that God’s word is truthful and it has great veracity and actually tied to history. And yet many critical scholars say, “Ah, this is where Luke and the Bible’s wrong, therefore it can begin to undermine the authority of the Bible.” And why it matters to me and why I even chose Quirinius is because when I started doing some digging, it reminded me of some of the videos that my teens would send.

Mark Holland:

They send you TikTok videos.

Nick Marnejon:

That’s right. Or YouTube Shorts.

Mark Holland:

Throwing shade on the Christmas Story, or just all of Christianity.

Nick Marnejon:

Yeah, they watch this one minute video and it begins to undermine the Bible and say, “Hey, this is where, for instance, Luke got this wrong.” I haven’t received this video yet, but others where, they send me these… They have these questions based on these videos, and then it begins to lead and put a little seed of doubt and disturbance and their faith.

So anyways, what happens with Quirinius is that we know from another historian around the time, his name’s Josephus, he was a Jewish historian. He dates Quirinius to AD 6 when he took over as the Governorship of Syria and that’s after Herod Archelaus is banished by the Roman government and kicked out of authority, and so Quirinius comes in and does the census.

So again, that’s an issue historically because Quirinius AD 6, we know that Herod the Great is the one that’s the ruler of Judea at the time.

Mark Holland:

Part of the cast of the Christmas story.

Nick Marnejon:

Exactly.

We know he died for sure by 4 BC at the latest, so we have this issue of a decade of Quirinius being in power and Herod the Great being… When the other gospels and even Luke dating that with John the Baptist birth earlier to Herod the Great who is dead by 4 BC. So, you have this issue of, “Wow, this seems to be historical inaccuracy.”

Mark Holland:

So how is that reconciled then?

Nick Marnejon:

There’s a number of different attempts to reconcile it, but what happens at the end of the day is you can go through looking at, “Hey, this is a translation issue or this is a historical issue because Quirinius was a governor twice,” all these other things.

I actually think the best explanation for me as I interpret it and look at it, is given by a scholar named Daryl Bach, who’s a New Testament scholar, and he suggests that these censuses that were being put out by Caesar Augustus, they take a long time to happen. And so what probably happens is they were initiated earlier around the time of Herod the Great, but then when Quirinius takes over in AD 6, that’s really when things are completed and he’s the one that gets the credit.

Mark Holland:

I see.

Nick Marnejon:

Again, think of how such a long time government programs can take. Even look here in our very own area with the link light and the rail being moved up and furthered up north. I forget exactly when they started the new construction there, a few years ago, maybe five or six. I just checked and it’s after 2040 that the anticipated date of them going as far as they want in completing it. That’s decades of work. And we know from history past that Roman censuses were very thorough and detailed, and so it’s no wonder that it would take a long time. Again, no modern interventions where they can just figure out things.

Mark Holland:

Are censuses back then the same as what we would consider a census today? Or they’re just trying to get basic information about their population?

Nick Marnejon:

Pretty similar too, actually. We have one guy at a later date in history who says that they were thorough. They came and they were counting vineyards and trees and going and shaking [inaudible 00:06:47].

Mark Holland:

So they know how to tax them.

Nick Marnejon:

Exactly. They wanted all the money they could get, and so they were very thorough.

Mark Holland:

Well, I think this is so interesting that again, this mores it to a real historical event and people a lot of times we’re finding that in this discussion of The Cast of the Christmas Story again, that this is a historical event. Jesus was a historical person. I think that’s so interesting that you get all your students, or many of the students, who are wondering about their faith being challenged at universities by, “Look at all these inconsistencies, was Jesus even a real historical figure?” And what’s so ironic, is there any ancient book that has more to substantiate its claims than the Bible? Both the Old and New Testament?

Nick Marnejon:

Exactly. Yeah, by a long shot.

Mark Holland:

Yeah. Compared to what? Homer’s Odyssey and some these. Of the Iliad and some of these things, way more.

Nick Marnejon:

Exactly.

Mark Holland:

Way more accuracy with the Bible and historical records.

So Luke is writing this too. You brought this up before we were recording this. Luke was trying to base this in history because most of the apostles were probably passing away by the time he wrote this book.

Nick Marnejon:

Yeah.

Mark Holland:

When do you think he wrote the Gospel of Luke?

Nick Marnejon:

Well, people are all over the map on that.

Mark Holland:

Certainly in the first century though.

Nick Marnejon:

Certainly in the first century. Some people-

Mark Holland:

60 years after the fact?

Nick Marnejon:

Yeah. So usually the hard date that people are wondering is AD 70, because that’s when the temple was destroyed.

Mark Holland:

Yeah, it had to be before that. Yeah.

Nick Marnejon:

Yeah. And so we would say it would be before that. Jesus probably dying in about 33 AD, and so he’s probably going anywhere between 33 AD up to maybe 60, 65 that this gospel’s being written.

And again, this a lot… He probably had to go and do interviews, find people, eyewitnesses, so probably took him a number of years as well. I prefer an earlier date prior to 70 AD. As to when exactly? I’m not sure. Maybe 60, 65. But yeah.

Mark Holland:

Luke too, correct me if I’m wrong, he’s the only Gentile in the New Testament, isn’t he? Wasn’t he a Gentile?

Nick Marnejon:

Yes. Yeah.

Mark Holland:

He was the only one who wasn’t a Jew.

Nick Marnejon:

Probably a Gentile doctor.

Mark Holland:

Gentile doctor. So this was important to him to be historically accurate. He wrote the Gospel of Luke and the Book of Acts, which is also a historical book in the New Testament.

Nick Marnejon:

Correct. Yeah. Probably part two of one volume in starting with Luke and then Acts. Yeah.

Mark Holland:

Well, I think what this does so well is, bases our faith on real historical events.

Have you ever been to Israel?

Nick Marnejon:

I have not. No. I want to.

Mark Holland:

I went there…

Nick Marnejon:

On my bucket list.

Mark Holland:

… A couple of years ago, just before the pandemic, and it was life changing. There’s something about, going to a place… All these stories, these are real people, real places. You think…

Even as a Christian, I’ve been a Christian a long time. You can get into thinking, “Well, that was not saying that a myth,” a lot of the stories, but you find out, no, these are real people, real places, real cities that are still around today, and it’s just so affirming for our faith.

Nick Marnejon:

It really is.

Mark Holland:

We hope that this…

Anything else that you took away from this look at Quirinius?

Nick Marnejon:

Yeah. Well, who he was historically, he was a guy that we know climbed the Roman ladder of power, wasn’t really in of any…

Mark Holland:

How is he different from Pilate, another government official from the Romans?

Nick Marnejon:

So Pilate and Quirinius are…

Mark Holland:

Similar kinds of roles?

Nick Marnejon:

Similar kinds of roles, but Pilate was, I would say, more on the ground than Quirinius was. Quirinius was over a greater area, and then Pilate would be more on the ground. Partially part of the reason that he’s having such a in-person talk with Jesus eventually.

Mark Holland:

Yeah.

Well, Pilate… Yeah, he’s at the other end of Jesus’ life. Quirinius is at the birth of Christ.

So, a very interesting story, interesting historical fact. Josephus is the person, the extra biblical source you mentioned?

Nick Marnejon:

Correct, yeah. That dates him.

Mark Holland:

For people, for young kids who are having problems with their faith, they’re being challenged by their university professors with all kinds of things they’d never heard of until they got to university, they’re raised in Christian home. What would you tell those students maybe who are listening today? Or parents maybe who are listening to this podcast and they say, “Hey, listen to Pastor Nick. He’s got some great insight into this.”

How do you talk to young people about subjects like this?

Nick Marnejon:

I think what I generally like to say is, when we come to the Bible, we start with it as both a human and a divine document. We believe that it’s God’s Word, but also that it’s truly human and that people, authors, real life-

Mark Holland:

Real people.

Nick Marnejon:

Real people wrote it too.

Mark Holland:

Historical people.

Nick Marnejon:

Historical people. And they were writing it by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and so we have both a divine book and a human book.

And I think, hopefully rightfully so, we emphasized the divine part of it, that it’s God’s word. But I think sometimes that allows us to forget the humanity of it and that we have people who are historians, people who are apostles, people who are writing things and doing things differently than we would too. And we have to remember that this is about 2000 years ago. We have a lot of history behind us. Things are complicated. We’re not boots on the ground. And so before we just, “Aha, there’s the issue.”

Mark Holland:

There’s a small inconsistency, so we’re going to chuck the whole thing.

Nick Marnejon:

Chuck the whole thing.

Before you do that, do your research a little bit more and lean into it.

Mark Holland:

Well, that’s what I love about the Christian faith. It’s not only powerful and real and there’s a real Holy Spirit we deal with, but it’s historical and it has a written document, a written record in the Bible of things that happen that we can trust.

That’s always what the first thing people go after too, is the reliability of the scripture.

Nick Marnejon:

Correct.

Mark Holland:

So, this is great information to help you defend your faith, whatever age you are, but particularly on Nick’s heart is students, and he’s the Student Ministry Pastor at Community Christian Fellowship in Edmonds.

And before we let you go, Nick, why don’t you pray for people who are maybe struggling with their faith, young people maybe in particular, who have been challenged at school and they’re hearing different parts of their faith challenged and how they can respond to that.

Nick Marnejon:

I’d love that.

Mark Holland:

Okay, let’s pray.

Nick Marnejon:

Let’s pray.

Our Father, we thank you again that you are not a God who is far off, but you’re also… Not only far off, but also imminent, that you’re with us always and that you don’t leave us just to guess things out. That you are active in history, moment in and moment out. And we get to be participating in that. That you’ve chosen to use us as humans to tell us about yourself. What a glorious and magnificent thing that is.

I pray right now for all the kids, the teens, the young adults who are struggling with their faith, who’ve run into maybe some issues where they think that because someone has said, “this seems to be inaccurate or not historical or reliable,” or, “Look at all these contradictions” that you would show them, father, that a lot of Christians have spilt, a lot of [inaudible 00:13:55] spent a lot of time thinking, and these are not new things. This has been here a long time and we’ve had 2000 years of Christian witness to stand up against all the criticisms, all the difficulties, and Your Word continues to be faithful and true.

May they remember that. May they go seek counsel and wisdom from others. May they remember that they don’t have to be people who have all the right answers, but at least that they’re seeking and following and attempting to reconcile what they think is broken. That they would be people who, again, by your spirit, are moving to be more like Your Son Jesus. I just pray that that would be the case for many of those that are questioning their faith right now.

I pray that Jesus name. Amen.

Mark Holland:

Amen.

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