The Cast of the Christmas Story: Jesus

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Mark Holland:

The cast of the Christmas story series is sponsored by World Concern and the Global Gift Guide. Find out more at globalgiftguide.org.

Speaker 1:

The cast of the Christmas story.

Mark Holland:

And once again, we dive into the cast of the Christmas story. We’ve been talking to so many different pastors and people who have developed the ideas behind different people I didn’t even know about in the Christmas story, but we come to a person in the Christmas story who is the most well-known obviously. And that’s about, we’re talking about Jesus this time. And to take on the subject of Jesus, baby Jesus, and maybe a little bit beyond that as well, Pastor Vince Armfield of Lakeside Christian Church in Kirkland. Hi there Pastor Vince.

Vince Armfield:

Hey, it’s good to be with you.

Mark Holland:

Good to be with you. Good to get to know you a little bit before we started recording here. You seem like kind of a man after my own heart. Kind of wants to be winsome in how you talk about subjects, talk about the Christian faith and talk about baby Jesus. So first, before we get into this big subject of Jesus in the Christmas story, tell us a little bit about you and your church there. How long have you been with Lakeside Church?

Vince Armfield:

Well, I’ve been there quite a while. It’ll be coming up on 30 years, believe it or not.

Mark Holland:

Wow.

Vince Armfield:

I know, I look young still. Good diet.

Mark Holland:

As long as I’ve been here at Christa.

Vince Armfield:

Yeah, funny enough, I was there as a parishioner and then I got drafted into volunteer work with the youth group and then I had felt a call to ministry, but I didn’t know what that was when I was in the military. And then coming out here and then people in the ministry, deacons, elders, whatnot, they saw a calling on my life. So they said, hey, we would like to send you to Bible college. Is that something you’d be interested in?

Mark Holland:

Wow.

Vince Armfield:

So the church…

Mark Holland:

So adopted by the church.

Vince Armfield:

Yes.

Mark Holland:

They do think you’ve got big things in store.

Vince Armfield:

Yeah, it’s a very interesting story and a gracious story. They paid for me to go to Bible college. I went to a local college, Bible college, put together here in the Seattle area and then went off to Northwest Baptist Seminary after that. And then Corban University after that, ended up with a Master of Divinity degree over the years.

Mark Holland:

Wow.

Vince Armfield:

And always been there. So I was youth pastor, then assistant pastor, and then they haven’t figured it out yet, so they called me to be senior pastor.

Mark Holland:

And so how long have you been senior pastor?

Vince Armfield:

Since 2005.

Mark Holland:

2005. So you’ve seen a lot, been through a lot, in the last 20 years or so, and brought you to this point. Have you ever done any podcasting or broadcasting before?

Vince Armfield:

No. We dabbled a little bit with it at the beginning of COVID, but then we just went to broadcasting the sermons, the Sunday messages and it’s been a very interesting ride to get here.

Mark Holland:

So married with children?

Vince Armfield:

Yes. Married to Janice, coming up on 40 years.

Mark Holland:

40 years. Congrats.

Vince Armfield:

We have three adult children and six grandchildren and very blessed that we’re all ministering together in the same church still. Kids are involved in the ministry and it’s really a joy because it’s kind of like when I was a youth pastor, they’d say, oh, you’re only going to be here four years.

Mark Holland:

There’s a lot of turnover with youth pastors.

Vince Armfield:

And for the life of me, I couldn’t imagine that because you just start to see kids blossoming when they go from junior high into senior high. And then it was the same when I became a senior pastor. They’re like, oh, you’ll only be here for a few years. And I really liked the idea of seeing the kids that I knew in youth group having kids, and now I’m old enough to see their kids are becoming teenagers and it’s a really a cool fabric to see.

Mark Holland:

Well, it sounds like a real family affair there at Lakeside Christian Church. Well, we’re talking about the original, the holy family as they’re called, Joseph, Mary and baby Jesus. You said you were surprised you got assigned baby Jesus or that nobody had taken baby Jesus. You came in here with… You didn’t know if you’re going to have to be doing a big theological dissertation or what.

Vince Armfield:

That’s right. I didn’t know if I was… This is some sort of ordination examination. I’ve got to get this right or not talk about heresy here. But when I thought about baby Jesus, my mind wandered to the, what is it? The 2006 movie, Talladega Nights.

Mark Holland:

Of all things.

Vince Armfield:

I know, right?

Mark Holland:

I have not seen… I’ve seen scenes from that, but tell me about this one scene that’s in that.

Vince Armfield:

There’s the one scene, and if I remember correctly, they’re praying for dinner and Ricky Bobby, the main character is praying and he’s asked about or he’s chided by his dad, you shouldn’t pray to Jesus flippantly. And he said, well, I pray to baby Jesus. And he went on to describe I like a nice eight pound baby Jesus to pray with. And I was like, that’s so crazy. I know it’s not the place we usually start with theology with…

Mark Holland:

A safe Jesus.

Vince Armfield:

Yeah, safe Jesus.

Mark Holland:

Beacon mild.

Vince Armfield:

Exactly. And something that’s not accountable to a baby, actually a baby is dependent upon you. And there’s all kinds of ramifications.

Mark Holland:

A lot of people like that kind of Jesus.

Vince Armfield:

Exactly. But it was so bizarre because I’ve never heard anybody mention that out loud that when I’m praying, I’m thinking about a nice cuddly eight pound sweaty baby. And I was like, holy cow. All right, well let’s go. And so when we were talking about looking into Jesus, I thought it’s compelling because why a baby? Why would God…

Mark Holland:

Start off that way?

Vince Armfield:

Yeah. Why would he start off that way? And then I got to thinking, this is part of a bigger story. And I think sometimes in the church today we can fall into this feeling like I’ve been raised in this type of church or this type of church. And in the greater evangelical scheme of things, if you’re not careful, you think that this church, as we know it, has always been this way and this is it. We are starting something. But we’re actually part of this story, this meta-narrative that goes all the way back to the Garden of Eden when we talk about baby Jesus. And I started thinking about these different threads. We’re part of a great story. Abraham says that we are… Or Paul writing to the church saying that we are folded into the promises of Abraham. What does that mean? That’s a great huge story that we’re part of.

And it takes us back to the Garden where Adam and Eve, they fail in Genesis and then God says through the seed of a woman, the world will be redeemed. A Messiah is coming and it starts this march towards baby Jesus coming in Luke where this promised seed. And then we have these… I find it really captivating. I wrote down some notes here that these appearances of this Christ figure, the Messiah figure pop up throughout the Old Testament. You got what we theologically…

Mark Holland:

Christophany is what it’s called.

Vince Armfield:

Exactly. Christophany or theophany.

Mark Holland:

Different from when angels appear.

Vince Armfield:

Exactly.

Mark Holland:

There’s definitely seems to be two different kinds.

Vince Armfield:

Right. So you’ve got like Joshua before the children of Israel go into the promised land. And you know he’s different because he receives worship. Joshua bows before him and he doesn’t tell him to get up. And then you’ve got Gideon, who this Christ figure appears to him. Abraham, this guy just appears to him and is walking along with him and making all these promises. So you have these different characters that pop up through the Old Testament that even start building an excitement. Where is this Messiah going to come from? How’s he going to come? And then you’ve got the seed conflict that passes through the story of Esther where Mordecai is going to try to wipe out all the Jews. And why is it that the Jewish race or the Hebrews are always the target of complete extermination?

Mark Holland:

To this day.

Vince Armfield:

Yeah. Not just partial but complete extermination. And there’s something captivating about that. And so that kind of brings us into thinking about the prophecies, right? You’ve got the big ones we talk about at Christmas, Isaiah 7, Isaiah 9. Isaiah 7, a child’s going to be born, Isaiah 9 begins to fill out what that child’s going to be. And reading it in its near context it’s to this King Ahaz, who doesn’t know if he can trust God. And the prophets saying, ask for a sign. Ask for a sign. And Ahaz like we probably do, we’re like, I don’t want to ask God for anything. I don’t want to ask God. And Ahaz will [inaudible 00:08:37]. Sure, I’m going to give you a sign anyway and this child’s going to be born and in his lifetime you’ll see deliverance and you can trust the Lord. But then there’s the long range prophecy because the description of this child goes beyond just being born of a woman. It talks about being the King of Kings, Lord of Lords, Prince of peace, mighty God.

Mark Holland:

Everlasting Father I can hear the Messiah.

Vince Armfield:

Yes, the Messiah, right? The strains of it. So there’s something more to this child that’s coming, this Messiah that’s coming than just a normal average birth. And it’s if you will, pregnant with expectation, right?

Mark Holland:

There you go, pregnant with expectations.

Vince Armfield:

We had to use that at some point. And then I don’t know why… How do you know the difference in these prophecies? And one theological way of interpreting it is looking at it as hills and valleys. The prophet is seeing the tops of the mountains. He doesn’t see the valley, so he doesn’t see the time between the prophecies, and he only gets one point of view. And as we look at these looking back, we can see, okay, these things line up and they start to find their fruition in Christ, in Jesus’s birth. And so that kind of brings us into the Christ’s birth.

Mark Holland:

Yeah, you’re right. Looking back, it seems to make more sense anyway, but it didn’t seem to make sense to them at the time because this was a real mystery. They weren’t looking for God to come as a baby. They weren’t looking for a saving Messiah. They were looking for a conquering Messiah who’s going to come and set everything a right. And we believe that he will do that one day, but he had to come first in this vulnerable way. I mean, there’s all kinds of books and all kinds of things have been written as to why God might’ve done that. Why do you think God came as a vulnerable baby?

Vince Armfield:

I think for two reasons, and I point to Hebrews to answer that, but I think it’s all about relationship. God wants to have a relationship with us and it’s not about a religious relationship and all these things are about to sound very cliched, so bear with me. This is a loving God who in all creation set things out and the fall of the Garden happens and it’s about him pursuing us. And here he comes to pursue us and come into our lives and step into our lives quite literally by adding humanity to his pre-existent deity. And it’s all big mouthful. John, the gospel writer was trying to figure out how to say that. And as the Gospel of John opens, you have the account of John the Baptist and John the Baptist is through Elizabeth, Jesus’s relative. And Elizabeth is chronologically pregnant before Mary, but her child, John the Baptist says, Jesus existed before me. Again, mysterious language.

Mark Holland:

We don’t understand?.

Vince Armfield:

Right. And it doesn’t make sense on the surface.

Mark Holland:

But Jesus wasn’t… Sometimes think, was Jesus reincarnated or something? But that’s not what it’s teaching.

Vince Armfield:

Right. It’s pointing to there’s a pre-existent person named Jesus who adds flesh or humanity to his deity and comes to experience life with us and not just kind of ride along shotgun, but he’s experiencing life. Like woman at the well. Jesus got tired and sat by the well and engaged this woman. You’ve got Lazarus tomb, and this is a little bit for me, I find very curious and a little bit mind-blowing. You have at Lazarus’ tomb, have all these people crying. And that’s the shortest Bible verse in Matthew where it says Jesus wept. And then when you think, okay, [inaudible 00:12:22] speaking, if Jesus is the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and they experience life together, they’re separate yet one, that’s God who’s crying. And I think that’s a powerful message and a powerful image. And it speaks to the… I think the level of relationship here is not master-servants gravel before God.

As a matter of fact, Jesus said that I don’t want you to call me master. I don’t call you servants. I call you friends. That’s profound language for God to be speaking to his people. And I think back to things like the [inaudible 00:13:01], of what is it? Deuteronomy chapter six, where it says, love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Jesus reiterates that in Matthew 20 and Luke also, where he’s saying, I want you to love me. I want you to love God and love each other like yourself, but love God with your all.

Mark Holland:

And Jesus went on to say, if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father.

Vince Armfield:

Exactly.

Mark Holland:

And that’s really kind of what got him killed but they didn’t realize he was willingly giving up his life. People always think that Jesus, he meant well, but he got killed. But no, he came again. He came. He knew exactly what his mission was. I need to come the first time to die because he will save his people from their sins. And that’s how he had to do it by putting on that humanity. This idea that Jesus is 100% God, but also 100% man, that’s another profound mystery.

Vince Armfield:

Right. And I think the writer of Hebrews was struggling like Paul often does about the resurrection. Here, the writer of Hebrews is struggling to find words to describe how this is and why it is. And I think in, what is it? Hebrews chapter two verses 14 through 18. I think he gives us a clue where he says that he didn’t take on the seed of Abraham, he didn’t take on the DNA, excuse me. He didn’t take on the seed of angels. He didn’t take on the DNA of angels, but he took on humanity in all ways. It says he was tempted like us. So fully human in order to be able to relate to us. So we can pray when we pray and we’re thinking, does God understand me? Yeah, he does.

The Psalmist would struggle to kind of sum that up by saying he knows that we’re frail. What is man? And he knows that we’re weak and frail. But the writer of Hebrews is kind of bringing home, it’s more than just a distant knowledge. Like I know that my grandparents came from Ireland. That’s like I know that they’re suffering because I felt it. And that’s kind of what he’s alluding to here, that Jesus understands what we go through.

Mark Holland:

In all ways like us, except without sin.

Vince Armfield:

Yes.

Mark Holland:

He had to experience it.

Vince Armfield:

Right. So in the flesh, he redeems us humans, DNA humans. But in his deity, he never relinquished any of his deity. I think his glory, but not his deity. And so he’s able to affect us salvation. That’s like the writer of Hebrews goes on to say, once and for all time. And it’s based on his work, his deity. So that also speaks to this incredible grace that God from back in the Garden pursues us, to redeem us back to himself in relationship and has done everything to make it possible. I think about many times we think about religion as we’re reaching up to God, we’re trying to please God. And here we see in the incarnation, God coming down to us and saying, here I am. And the ultimate proposition is, do you believe it? Don’t pay for it. Don’t help old ladies across the street. Don’t give to the church. Don’t get cats out of trees. Just believe that I love you this much.

Mark Holland:

It’s a powerful story. It has to be divine because again, like we were saying before we started recording, why didn’t God just come down like a spaceman or something and whip up and set things right?

Vince Armfield:

Like Superman.

Mark Holland:

Like Superman, which is obviously a kind of a parable.

Vince Armfield:

A Christ character, right? Coming out of the sky but not human.

Mark Holland:

Yeah. This is the story… The cast of the Christmas story is kind of like the original true fable that all of these myths and things are based on this real event in history. Surprising to me, still people are even wondering if Jesus was a real person, but yet obviously he was if you even somewhat look into history.

Vince Armfield:

Well yeah, there’s extra biblical writings from Philo who’s a historian that people put water in and it holds, to the writings of Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger, Josephus, a Jewish historian. And you’ve got these Roman writers who we’re reading over the shoulders, these personal letters back and forth from Rome, and they’re talking about a historical character, Jesus. And this, well, maybe this is for Easter, but with the resurrection of Jesus, these people had a major paradigm shift in their religion, their whole religion, the monotheistic Jews who would’ve never worshiped a man. And we catch pictures of that and little windows that open when we read these letters from these other extra biblical writers who are commenting on the time. So I think it’s fair to say that Jesus is historical, and when we think about Jesus as being born as a baby, you mentioned the word mystery earlier and I think that’s really apt and it’s captivating, because as a baby, he’s completely vulnerable.

Mark Holland:

We don’t know much about his… That’s probably on purpose, I would say about his young life either until 30. We have just a little bit. We see Jesus in the manger, little baby Jesus. Once when he was like 11 or 12, once when he was brought to be circumcised a little bit, but for the most part, nothing. We don’t know.

Vince Armfield:

Right. We just get that snippet from Luke 2 where he is at the… They come in for the feasts and then they’re in that caravan going home and somebody looks in the back of the car and says, where’s Jesus? They got to drive back to… The camel train back to Jerusalem and find him in the temple.

Mark Holland:

So very little, but by design, I think.

Vince Armfield:

Yes, I think so. Like the writer John said in the gospel, if I was to write everything about Jesus, the books would fill the world. So we’re only getting a small window opening and we have to ask ourselves… There’s a reason for that and probably to avoid too much speculation or being sidetracked down a rabbit hole.

Mark Holland:

But we love to speculate.

Vince Armfield:

That’s true.

Mark Holland:

And there has been a lot of that for 2000 years. We do believe he came first as the Savior, but he’s coming again as the soon and coming King. He’s the King right now though. That’s what’s cool.

Vince Armfield:

That is very cool, right? Jesus said, the kingdom is here. It’s in our midst. And the $10 word is inaugurated kingdom, right? Like it’s here, but not all ready, but not yet. And that is where we come in, I think, is to say, who is Jesus to us? Is he that vulnerable, needing my help, eight pound little sweaty baby laying in Mary’s lap? And I say that because one of the things I love doing was holding my kids and my grandkids when they were babies, and they just heat up on you and they get all sweaty.

So there’s a way in which I think we can fall into this trap of seeing Jesus as still vulnerable and needs us, and yet in who he is, in his deity and in his majesty, he’s completely without need for us, but loves us and calls us to relationship with him and has done everything to make that relationship happen. Our sin is forgiven by him. It’s on his movement. The plan of the Father executed by the Son, sealed in the Spirit. Ephesians chapter one, it’s all there. And it comes back to, do I believe God could love me this much? And this is I think the greatest challenge for us, that we have to get around that. Sometimes we think it’s… Well, you got to get around the sin, like believe you’re a sinner. But some people I think honestly wrestle with, am I worthy of all this? And that’s the beauty of grace, that God is saying, I choose to love you just as you are. And I knew this and I still came and God’s saying, I still sent my son. It’s a powerful thought.

Mark Holland:

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. And that is what we celebrate this time of year and the Christmas story. And Jesus, his incarnation, the big $10 word as you say, happened at… This is the time of year when people are looking there, is this the nativity story? And they see the live nativity or they see, is this real? Is this something that’s for me? And we believe it is.

Vince Armfield:

It is.

Mark Holland:

And for people who are listening to this and have been listening to this series, the cast of the Christmas story and the centrality of Jesus, unlike other faiths, a lot of teachings, a lot of the great teacher this or that, Christianity is all about Jesus. What do you do with Jesus?

Vince Armfield:

The Apostle Paul writing to the church at Colossi, that Colossians chapter one says that he is the Godhead bodily, in him is everything that is God. You mentioned it before. No one’s ever seen God at any time. But now they’ve seen Jesus, right? The Gospel of John where he says, but now he’s been manifest or made known. And then you’ve got chapter three of Colossians, which says… He’s talking about Jesus and the resurrection and life with him. And he says, Jesus, who is your life. You’ll be revealed with him in glory and see him in glory and all that. The centrality of it is like Jesus is not like, I like to say, on the shelf with Confucius, even Martin Luther King or Gandhi or any great sage, Marcus Aurelius, whatever. Those are great people with great ideas and great thoughts, but they’re not God. So Jesus isn’t on the shelf a God among Gods. He is God alone. And that’s what Paul tries to make that plane that he is to have first place.

Mark Holland:

Jesus, and that is why we worship him, that’s why we exalt him, particularly this time of year. If you’re listening to this podcast and you’re wondering about Jesus, about the Christmas story, it’s our prayer that you will come to know the Savior and Lord, but you got to receive him first is Savior.

Vince Armfield:

That’s right.

Mark Holland:

And then you realize I think through your life that he’s also Lord as well. But he loves us. And he made the first move.

Vince Armfield:

He did. He made the first move. An incredible statement. And when you think about any relationship, you always admire the person that makes the first move. Somebody’s got to. And in this relationship with God, our creator, sometimes he gets put in a corner where he’s seen as this mean old guy with a black cloak and a big sigh like the reaper coming to kick butt, take names, right? But he really stands as a God who loves us. His heart is broken for us. He understands who we are, where we’ve come from and still loves us. And says, believe that I did all this for you, took away sin, but also the shame and all that’s associated with it.

Mark Holland:

Well, Pastor Vince, why don’t we close this discussion with a prayer from you for people who are listening, considering Jesus and considering the Christmas story. Why don’t you pray for those people listening today?

Vince Armfield:

Absolutely. Father God, we love you, Lord, and we can’t begin to thank you enough for your incredible love for us. And I pray for anyone who’s listening now, who has not received your love and has not embraced your love. I pray that they will see how much you love them, that you sent your son to come into this world, to identify with every single need that we have, to experience life in complete, to relate to us completely. And then that same person grew and surrendered his life so that we could know you as Savior. That our sins could be forgiven. All the things that we think that we’re supposed to do, but we don’t. And all the things that we don’t do or we’re not supposed to do, but we do do, all these things culminate into sin and separate us from God because he’s just and holy.

But it is through Jesus, through God himself, who sends his son Jesus to redeem us. He doesn’t have somebody else do it. It’s him. He is God. And he comes to take our place because he loves us. He loves us so much. He loves you that much. So I pray that as you ponder this, that Father, as people ponder this Lord, that they will receive you as simple as saying, I believe you died for me. I believe that you died for my sins on the cross. I believe you love me that much, and I receive you as Savior. Father, my prayer is for anyone who has not done that, to take that step, to receive that love, and allow God to come into their life and make it all brand new. Father, Paul said that all things are new, old things are passed away because we’re a new creation. And that starts with knowing Jesus. So Father, we pray these things and we ask all these things in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Mark Holland:

Amen. The cast of the Christmas story series is sponsored by World Concern. You can give a gift with a lifetime of impact. Your gift will meet the critical need of a child or family living in poverty. You can give a goat or 1 of 43 other life-changing gifts today, through the world concerned Global Gift Guide. Give life-changing gifts that work together to transform the lives of moms, dads, and children in the world’s poorest places. You can even select a meaningful gift in honor of a friend or loved one. Each gift transforms the life of someone in poverty. Go to globalgiftguide.org. Again, that’s globalgiftguide.org.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much for joining us for the cast of the Christmas story, a series on Purposely Equipped. We’d love for you to take a moment and let us know what you think of this series by leaving us a review. For more podcasts to grow your faith, we invite you to visit onpurposely.com. Until next time.