Disclaimer: This story contains sensitive content that may not be safe for young ears. Consider putting in earbuds if you have kids present.
Jerry Dugan while deployed to Kuwait, wrote to his wife and family, the “in case I die” letter. His whole hard life had led to this moment. You will see the wonderful way the Lord changed him and his family, and how he was able to come home. He is truly an honorable man, but one who wasn’t always proud of his family name. At 14, in his mind his family name stood for trouble, heartbreak, bullying, racial microaggressions and brokenness. He had already been through so much in his young life. Jerry shares with us the life-changing prayers and loving God that lead him to a new family honor, and helped him to change the generational patterns that informed his childhood.
Jeremiah 1:5 -“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Topics Shared:
Biracial childhood
Tiger Mom
Performance-based acceptance
Performance-based affection
Top Gun style bet to break up his parents
Heart-breaking divorce
The Army brushed a lot of things under the carpet
Suicide ideations and suicide attempts
Intervention
Loving foster home
Bullied by uncles in Ca.
His gentle father flips the switch to military policeman with army training
A turning point
Deployment to Kuwait, 1/’03-3/’03
Writing the ‘in case I die’ letter
War homecoming and seeing his kids for the first time
Quotes:
“When you are 7 or 8 years old and the amount of affection you are getting from your mom, the kind of attention you get from your mom is solely based on your performance in an activity, that sets a weird expectation.”
“In the movies they always have that ‘in case I die’ letter they hand to their buddy to hand off, but I was so convinced I was going to die, that I wrote my letter. I disguised the wording just enough so it didn’t freak my wife out when she read it, but it was there. Everything I wanted to say to her was in that letter. I folded it, and I mailed it that night. It was one last mail run before we crossed the border.”
“We as a church can do better, back off the condemnation, and demonstrate more of the Jesus who hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors and treated them with dignity, treated them with respect because he honored their dignity.”
References:
Beyond the Rut Website & Podcast:
https://beyondtherut.com/
https://therealjerrydugan.com/
Jerry Dugan’s Ted Talk: http://therealjerrydugan.com/category/biblical-marriage/
Marriage Episode with Meg Glesener: https://beyondtherut.com/meg-glesener-healthy-marriage-btr-236/
The Suicide Prevention Hotline: 1-800-273-8255 & Website: https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
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For more inspiring stories: https://lettersfromhomepodcast.com/
Transcription:
Purposely. Your life. God’s purpose. Listen at onpurposely.com.
Meg Glesener:
Wonderful news. Letters from Home has recently joined the CRISTA family in Seattle, Washington, and we are now part of the Purposely podcast network and channel. Thank you for celebrating with me, all of you current listeners, and a special welcome to all of you new listeners to give you a great sample of the stories you can expect or may not have had a chance to hear yet. We are doing a from the Vault series of some everyday extraordinary faith stories from the past. Here is Jerry Dugan’s story titled In Case I Die.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah, there were just other things we had to watch out for things that can go around his neck, his antidepressants themselves. We didn’t understand pharmacology, we just know that the label said take one every so many hours and not a handful. So we started controlling his dosages for him and we even had to just make sure that he got to work. Work was a good 15 minute drive from the apartment to where the office was. We knew that. We knew that to get to school we could sprint and get there in five minutes. So there was timing. It’s like all you going to work now, dad? All right, you go. We’re going to call you and make sure you’re there and then we’ll sprint and get to school.
Announcer 2:
And now for the next episode of Letters from Home, sending encouragement to your doorstep by capturing the heartbeat of God’s people. One story at a time.
Meg Glesener:
Hi, this is Meg. Today’s story is really a hard one, but it’s so, so encouraging. At the age of 10, today’s guest and his little brother had such adult responsibility placed on their shoulders, truly life-changing experiences. This crucible of a childhood, which includes a suicidal parent, biracial dynamics and bullying, which all take its toll. But later through military combat and a desperate prayer, this man’s life changes. Come hear his journey to bring honor to his family name and change the unhealthy generational patterns he grew up with. Here is the gentle and everyday extraordinary man of God, Jerry Dugan. And because this is a family friendly podcast, I want to take just a moment to let you know this story contains some sensitive content that might not be safe for young ears. If you have young kids listening, please take note and consider putting in ear buds. Jerry Duggan, I am so excited to have you on the podcast today. I’ve met you through Christian Podcasters Association and got to even be on your amazing show talking about marriage, and you have such a great show Beyond the Rut. I love your podcast and you’ve got also over 250 episodes, which makes you kind of, and you’ve been podcasting for eight years, kind of makes you an OG of podcast.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah, we recorded that episode that capped off originally, Brandon and I on Beyond the Rut had planned for a four-part marriage series. It wound up becoming an eight part marriage series, and we used you as the second to last episode I think. No, no, no, no. We got you in there though because your story encapsulated the first four episodes. So yeah, it was great to have you on there. And then the cool thing was I’d asked if you thought I would be a good fit for your show, I’d be open for it. And you were honest. You were like, I don’t have an opening until early 2021. And so now it’s early 2021 and here we are. So awesome stuff. I’m glad to be here.
Meg Glesener:
Yeah, well definitely have to link that episode. It’s such a great series. And when I came on and Brandon, were so great and I love the dynamic and I actually point a lot of people to your show as far as having a co-host, but you’ve had a recent pivot where you are now working solo, so yeah what’s the change with that?
Jerry Dugan:
Oh man. It’s like having your best friend shot and killed, but he’s still there. No, I’m kidding. No, <laugh> man. He went dark very fast.
Meg Glesener:
Sorry, Brandon.
Jerry Dugan:
Hopefully Brandon, you hear this and you, you’re laughing too.
Meg Glesener:
So Jerry can, let’s just kick right into your story. What was it like to be you growing up? Give us a little background on you as a person,
Jerry Dugan:
Man. Wow. Depending on who you ask my brother would say I was a pain in the butt. My mom would probably say I’m stubborn and my dad would say I was that go getter in the family that he’s very proud of but doesn’t admit that I’m his favorite child.
Meg Glesener:
I think that’s, whoa, come on dad. Dad fried.
Jerry Dugan:
Did I go too far there? Dad <laugh>? You got answer to Jimmy, not me. So yeah, I’m the oldest of two kids. My dad was a soldier in the US Army. He was a military policeman enlisted soldier. I think he retired as a staff sergeant. My mom married him when they met in Thailand, so she’s an immigrant from Thailand. So yeah, biracial child growing up in America. But a lot of what I experienced growing up was the military brat life. So lived in California, moved probably every year to lived in a wonderful place called Herlong, California. If you’ve been there I’m surprised because it was a very small town.
Meg Glesener:
I have not, and I grew up in SoCal.
Jerry Dugan:
Oh man. Yeah, this is more in northern California. I think my dad was guarding some missile silos or something.
Meg Glesener:
No big deal.
Jerry Dugan:
It was out in the boonies for a reason. And if that’s, if I got nuked, you lose Herlong. It’s like, but San Francisco’s okay. But yeah, because of that, I got to grow up in Germany. Japan got a very worldly experience growing up. Life at home was very different. My mom was, well, I don’t know about different, but my mom was your stereotypical tiger mom, so you’re going to get good grades, you’re going to become a doctor, you’re going to become an officer in the army because from her perspective as an immigrant into the US, those were the signs of success because all she knew were military people. And of course Asians love somebody in the family to become a doctor. So it was on me. I had to get good grades, become a doctor, become an officer in the army. And then my dad was the complete opposite.
So where my mom might be bad cop, my dad was a good cop, so he was much more laid back. He gave you a lot of room for messing up and of course later on in life, I’d appreciate why he was like that. So yeah, it good, I kind of refer to those days when I look back as the happy days because there’s a mom, there’s a dad there’s kind of an order to things even though things are kind of off because my mom is an immigrant from outside the US so there are a lot of cultural things I don’t understand, because she didn’t understand it, so she couldn’t really pass that on to me. Like the expectation that you take your shoes off when you go to somebody’s house, that’s a very Asian thing. And so going back to the states and taking my shoes off in every house I go into people are like, what are you doing, man?
We’re not staying here long. I’m like, I’m in your house. I’ve got to take my shoes off. No you don’t. I’m leaving mine on. I live here. And just not knowing what the rules are, I guess in a sense. But also being a biracial child, this came out a little bit more as my parents started to split apart. So my parents fortune when I was 11, there was a time I was in Cub Scouts when I was nine years old and I got pulled out of Cub Scouts because they got a B plus in one of my grades. I was like straight A’s, and then in, I guess one day in fourth grade, I became rebellious and got a B plus. So I come home and I got a 98 on one of my tests. It was the highest grade in the class on the quiz.
I was like, mom, I got a 98 highest grade in the class. And she’s like, what happened to the other two points? So it was only a hundred. And then there was another time where I had probably one of the few times in elementary school a teacher had to use a curve to grade something. And I remember getting, I think in 82 or in 84 on a test everybody else got, the next highest grade was like 55. And so I killed it. My teacher even wrote a note to explain to my mom, Jerry killed it. Nobody else came close for another 20 or 30 points be proud of his work, so on. I came home with that B and my mom was livid because that number wasn’t 1 0 0 told me to go to my room study. You’re being a slacker.
Meg Glesener:
What kind of toll did that take on you as a young man? Not ever having a sense of, well, I’m doing well.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah, failure was not an option. Just whatever was put in front of me, I had to be good at it, not so much the best. It wasn’t so much about me beating all of you in my class. I didn’t care about that. For me, it was about I needed to be perfect because I needed to bring that home to my mom. And in a way it was almost like performance for love in a sense. Yeah, because I mean, my mom loves me and we’ve had talks since then, but when you’re like seven years old, eight years old, nine years old, and the amount of affection you’re getting from your mom, the kind of attention you’re getting from your mom is solely based on your performance in an activity that yeah, that’s a weird expectation that whatever you do, you got to be the best at it the best for you. That again, I don’t care if I’m first place or not, it’s got to be perfect that that’s something that took me a long time to get used to. And I think college gave me a good wake up call to that.
Meg Glesener:
I bet. What was your dad like? So you said he was much more chill . Did that feel like a stress on the family, having your mom be kind of everything has to be perfect because if he’s a super chill guy, I’m sure that caused a little tension between them as well.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah, I mean gentle giant of a guy. So still along the same lines of the grades, I remember, I think it was kindergarten or first grade, they didn’t have the A, B, C, D grade system. They had outstanding O for outstanding S for satisfactory I, for incomplete N for need needs improvement. And I came home with all, so basically straight A’s, but what my mom saw was all zeroes.
Meg Glesener:
Oh, no.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah, so she felt like we the parents failed. Jerry and Jerry didn’t try hard enough because obviously he got all zeroes. So yeah, I remember being in my room like crying because she had spanked me and my dad came home from work and I could hear through the doorway basically I could hear the wrinkling of the paper waving the report card at my dad saying, look at what your son did, look at how he did. And my dad looks at it, he is like, this is great. And she’s like, why are you Americans all stupid and why are you okay with this kind of thing? This is not okay. He’s like, why are you thinking this is not okay? This is the best anybody could do. And so there’s this loss in translation. And so he was very patient and took the time to explain to her that this is the scale.
It’s not A’s, B’s, and C’s. This is O for outstanding. It’s the highest grade you can get. And look, he’s got all O’s. He got one O minus over here for attention or sitting still because probably an ADHD thing. But yeah, it was all O’s of a lot of O pluses. And he was like, I remember being in first grade or kindergarten, I didn’t get grades like this. So he was always comparing where he was and if he could at least get his kids to where he was as a minimum, then whatever they did after that was fine. So he was very down earth. He’s like, I was a C student and I cheated to get my, and I skipped a lot of class. The fact that you go to class every day voluntarily. I don’t understand that son. It was like he was the voice of reason. So whenever my mom was just being very hard on us, he would just kind of go in there and say, well, let me talk to them.
And he would talk to us and just kind of consult. He would never throw my mom under the bus. That was the other cool thing. Never threw my mom under the bus but just made sure we were okay, let us know that we were loved. And then he’d go back to her and you can hear him just calmly talk with her and talk through it. And you could hear her anger and her frustrations kind of subside. And a lot of it was probably a culture clash for her and just the way she grew up. Because I mean, you ran into her today and you wouldn’t know that she was this tiger mom type thirty some odd years ago,
Meg Glesener:
But I’m sure she’s so proud of you. I can only imagine. You just seem like this sweetest person, Jerry.
Jerry Dugan:
Aww, yay <laughs>.
Meg Glesener:
So at 11, what was it if I may ask, what was it that led to I guess the end of their relationship?
Jerry Dugan:
A number of things. Looking back, I don’t think their relationship was as strong as my dad thought it was. So they met when they were in Thailand, it was kind of a pseudo arranged relationship. He met her because of my aunt who was married to my dad’s platoon sergeant at the time. They kind of took my dad during the holidays and got to know him because they’re deployed in Thailand. And my aunt decides to play my aunt to be <laugh> because I wasn’t born yet. I wasn’t even in the picture, but she decides to play matchmaker and she’s going to hook up my dad with her middle sister because the middle sister is never going to get a man on her own. And she’ll get married to an American, and that’ll be her meal ticket. In a sense. I learned later on in my, I think late twenties that my mom actually was dating somebody at the time.
And so here’s my dad, he meets, my mom falls in love with her voices, his intentions to my grandmother that he would like to marry her, and here’s the dowry. And grandma says yes. And so to my dad, he thinks they have this budding relationship going. She smiles a lot, she’s talking to me. I speak Thai. She was surprised by that. She’s impressed by it. And so they’re married in 1972, and from then until, yeah, I’m 11 years old, she’s learning to love my dad, whereas my dad’s like 100% head over heels for her. So I don’t think it took much for her to want to be out of that relationship. The biggest cost to her was the two kids from the marriage. My dad had gotten orders to go to Germany. We were in California in another little Podunk town called Jolon, California, J O L O N.
If you’ve ever seen the movie Clear and Present Danger, there’s a scene where there’s a sniper being tested at Fort Hunter Liggett. That’s where we lived. And chances are I played on the hill and the plane where they’re testing that sniper because I was like, I recognize these hills. I think I played on these. I used to get my dad in trouble because there weren’t that many kids in the trailer park outside the gate. So it was just like, well, what did the kids look like? Oh, they had tan skin that was Sergeant Dugan’s kids because everybody else was white or black. So anyway, yeah, my dad had to go ahead of us to Germany to get housing. And during that time, my mom’s working on the Post as a waitress at the officer’s club and the movie Top Gun had come out, and there were some officers there on temporary duty who they loved that scene where they be each other like a month’s paycheck, who can sleep with who, right on the premises or that scene.
So yeah, there was a group of pilots all Apache pilots, and they made a bet who can break up that woman’s marriage. And they each put up one month’s salary is the story that eventually came out. And a guy, I’m not going to throw his name out there in case he’s minded his ways but yeah, one guy took on the challenge and within the next month just started pursuing her dotting on her. He was married with two kids as well. And so he was convincing her that this is what all soldiers do. And she started to believe it, and she had enough stories and examples while we were in the military of other guys who had cheated on their spouses to think that that was true. So yeah, she started seeing this guy while my dad was in Germany trying to get housing for us.
And then one day just pulled my brother aside and myself and let us know that we were going on to Germany. My brother and I were going on to Germany without her, and that she was going to stay in the States to finish her GED. So it was something that we knew she was always pursuing. I saw that as freedom. I don’t have to live under my mom’s thumb as the tiger mom. But my brother started crying right away. So he was like, don’t go, mom. Don’t go. Come with us. And so he was just really broken up. I didn’t understand why he was broken up about it but he was. And a few weeks after that, my dad does come back to California to pick us up, take us to Germany. But then I start to realize that there’s this other mission going on. My dad’s trying to save his marriage, that there’s another guy involved, that there’s this whole other side of the story I was oblivious to. And we go on to Germany without my mom, and things get kind of rocky and dicey from there.
Meg Glesener:
Jerry, it’s so hard to believe. So people bet on who could break up your parents’ marriage. And then this whole relationship ensued.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah. Oh, now my mom won’t talk about it much. And I think to this day she still thinks that she was kind of innocent in it all. But my dad’s side of the story was that it was a group of officers, warrant officers and officers who placed bets on could date my mom, and one guy won. Turns out this was a thing they did wherever they went. So for those three or four guys, that is what they did. So yeah, this guy wound up having three other relationships, maybe two, at least I know of two, my mom and then one other person. Because ultimately his downfall was the way he would break up with one to start a new one was he would let two of the girlfriends discover each other. Yeah. So yeah, one day he let and then they usually just get mad and they let him off the hook, and he repeats the cycle.
But I guess whoever it was before, my mom didn’t think that was the way the game should be played. And so when she found out about my mom, she went and she met my mom, told my mom all about her relationship with my mom’s boyfriend and all about the family in North Carolina. And so my mom went ahead and threw him out, all his stuff out of her apartment onto the curb. So when he came home from work, that was a surprise. And then when he knocked on the door, that was my mom and the other girlfriend, and the other girlfriend let him know that the wife also knows. So if he were to go home to North Carolina from Alabama he would find all this stuff is out on the curb there as well. So ultimately it cost him his family and broke that family up. But he also broke up, at least my family and who knows how many other families in the process of doing that. So he was definitely an example of what not to be as a man, just the impact that he had just by doing that, just being that shallow and that bravado that he thought he had the power to do that to other people and not even respect his own family. So it said so much.
Meg Glesener:
And that compartmentalized as well, just make all the compartments.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah, it was okay as long as he was doing this. Not in North Carolina. He was stationed in Alabama at the time. He was on temporary duty in California. Just a lot of things that he didn’t count on, finally catching up to him. Just a bummer. I remember my dad though, just desperately trying to get this guy reported. It was at a time when the army just brushed a lot of things under the carpet even though this guy’s behavior was behavior unbecoming of an officer. It was sort of just a slap on the hand, boys will be boys kind of thing. It’s like, no, this exists in the uniform code of military justice for a reason. So there’s the impact on my dad, just scrambling desperately trying to get my mom to come back with him. And then when he realized that she wasn’t coming back, he just fell apart.
His whole world was really just torn apart. He had this belief that my mom really loved him all this time, that his two children were the products of that love, that they were going to be together forever, that she recognized the sacrifices he made for her. Things that he was blind to though is he’s not the most romantic guy in the world. I would give him credit for being the most sacrificial guy. He would give you the last 20, he would give me the last 20 bucks in his pocket so I could pay a fee to go play high school football and then to make ends meet. He would go take on an extra job, a little side job to make cash. So we’d actually have food with our meals. That’s the kind of dad I had growing up. Very sacrificial. That’s how he demonstrates his love.
But if it comes to romance, he had no clue. And so here he’s married to a woman who wants to be wined, wants to be dined, and wants to be doted on, and he doesn’t know how. And so I think 13 years of marriage, it just caught up. Somebody who came along and offered that to her is what was enough to steer her away from him and tap into all her insecurities as well is really how that guy worked it. So yeah, my dad just completely world, completely blown apart becomes suicidal, depressed, suicidal again, the army trying to sweep that under the rug because they didn’t let anybody out of the army back then. Whereas today, first sign of weakness, boom, you’re out. Depression, you’re out. Oh, drug, alcohol problem, you’re out. But back then, any of those issues, they either swept into the rug to keep the manpower going or they helped you. And my dad wasn’t there yet where they helped him. He was on antidepressants. First night in Germany, it’s my brother, myself, my dad. And it’s just us. The luggage ,we don’t have any of our belongings from California yet have arrived. We, it’s just first day in country and we’re having dinner and I’m just excited. I’m like bachelor life. My tiger mom isn’t here to force me to do homework until I get straight and perfect scores.
Meg Glesener:
Jerry, was she still in California?
Jerry Dugan:
She was, yeah.
Meg Glesener:
And were you living with your dad or visiting him?
Jerry Dugan:
Living with
Meg Glesener:
On this big day?
Jerry Dugan:
Okay, so the arrangement with the separation was that we would live with my dad, and we hadn’t even figured out visitation with my mom yet. So because at this time, I mean she’s in her relationship, that that’s kind of where her focus is.
Meg Glesener:
! see. Yeah.
Jerry Dugan:
Thinking about what she wants and what she needs at that moment. And I know it sounds selfish, and that’s where she was at the time. She did share later on that she cried almost every night because she realized to have that relationship, she gave up her two boys. And so she waffled back and forth. And with that, the letters to my dad received from her were back and forth as well. One letter, she’s like, we’re done. Give it up. This is over. And then maybe two or three letters later, maybe I’ve made a mistake. I miss you all. I miss the boys talk about this. And then he gets another letter the next day. It’s like, wait, forget you, <laugh>. Like, I was wrong. I, I’ve woken up and this is my new life now. Get used to it. And just the thing that adults go through, I guess. Mm-hmm. When they’re going through something like that. And I’m able to piece that all together later. But yeah, I still remember that first night though. We’re getting ready to eat some chicken salad sandwiches on white bread and potato chips and drink sodas. And we’re like, yeah, we get drink sodas at dinner. And then I hear my brother scream, and I look at, we’re still in the kitchen, and I look up and my dad’s holding a knife to his chest, and
Meg Glesener:
Oh my goodness.
Jerry Dugan:
I’m like, whoa. What? What’s going on here? My brother was always tuned into what was really happening. And again, I think I just put on blinders and thought me, me, me, and I get freedom from my mom. And then here’s my dad who’s been struggling the whole time, and it’s serious. He’s thinking about plunging that butcher knife into his chest, and he’s crying. He’s like, you see his hands, both hands on, the handle shaking as he’s crying. And my brother’s screaming, dad, don’t do it. Dad, stop. And he’s, my brother’s crying. And then finally it kicks in for me, oh, if that knife goes in, my dad’s gone. And we go back to my mom. And so very selfish, 11, my brother’s nine. And so I remember just yelling out, dad, what are you doing? Or Dad, stop, something like that. And he pauses. He’s still shaking, he’s still crying and says something like it, it just hurts so much.
And so we’re like, let us have the knife. And so we get the knife out of his hands and we get him seated. He cries it out. We eat dinner sobbing, and we let him rest. And while he is resting, my brother and I basically collect up all the knives, all the forks. We’re like, he’s not doing this again. He’s not stabbing himself on our watch. And our big motivation was, and he had said something to effect, if my mom were to find out this happened, then the army would take him away from him, and then we’re all he has left to live for. And so
Meg Glesener:
He said that to you?
Jerry Dugan:
He said that to us, yeah. So yeah I mean, he is desperate. And so we’re like, well, we don’t want anybody to die in this family, so yeah, we’re already mad at mom. We don’t want to be mad at you either, and so we’re going to help you. And so we hide all the knives. We got only plastic utensils and paper plates now. There’s no breaking glasses and nothing. If it could break and become a weapon, it, it’s somewhere in an apartment building in Germany, there is a waste basket taped like crazy with a roll of duct tape with a bunch of knives in it and forks. And people just were like, why is this in here? Well, if you hear this now, why?
Meg Glesener:
That’s very resourceful of you too. I mean, that’s pretty amazing that you have that instinct in the moment to do that. Yeah. Your shepherdly hearts.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah, we <laugh>. It was probably overkill, but we’re like, yeah, this isn’t going to happen again. This, yeah. Now the funny part I think in that was there, I’m sure there was an argument about who is going to drop that in the basement because we had to leave somebody to watch dad. So somebody had to go down to this spooky horror movie looking basement in a foreign country where we don’t speak. I mean, everybody in the building was American, but we didn’t know that yet. So there was probably an argument about who’s going to take that downstairs and hide it. I’m pretty sure I lost because I remember running back. Yeah, yeah. My brother well played sir. Well played sir.
But yeah, there were just other things. We had to watch out for things that can go around his neck, his antidepressants themselves. We didn’t understand pharmacology. We just know that the label said Take one every so many hours and not a handful. So we started controlling his dosages for him, and we even had to just make sure that he got to work. So work was a good 15 minute drive from the apartment to where the office was. We knew that we that to get to school, we could sprint and get there in five minutes. So there was timing. It’s like, all you going to work now, dad? All right, you go, we’re going to call you to make sure you’re there, and then we’ll sprint and get to school. So it was just that. And then getting out of school, rushing home, and then he had to be home by a certain time, or we were going to start calling his work and start calling people in his command chain. And yeah, that was not a fun summer. When you’re in fifth grade, I’ll say that,
Meg Glesener:
Did you and your brother have just direct conversations about that when dad was sleeping? So you’re like, okay, we got to help him get to work, or did you just jump in and do it? It just kind of evolved as you saw the need.
Jerry Dugan:
A lot of it was just on the fly. So as we saw, he was attempting to hurt himself one way. We’re like, okay, well now this is the new rule. And if he tried to hurt himself another way, it’s like, now this is the new rule. Oh, you’re working on a Saturday. We’re going to come down and visit you at your office, and you’re going to have to give us a ride back because we know you’re not going to hurt us. So
Meg Glesener:
Was he able to pull out of that or did he get any kind of a help? How long did this go on?
Jerry Dugan:
This went on, I would say about three months. So it was like the last month or two a in school. And then summer came and I would say by August it had all kind of come to a head, and he actually got successful in trying to hang himself. It was like my brother and I at this point were taking shifts to watch my dad be present with him at all times. And so it was my brother’s turn to play outside my turn to keep an eye on him. And he just said he was going to take a rest. He’d gotten a letter from my mom and he was kind of crying and just said that he was going to get some rest. And I said, okay, dad. And I’m watching TV and I hear the door close, and one of the rules we had was that you don’t close the door, dad.
Every door stays open. We got to be able to see you. And it just kind of hit me like, wait, I don’t hear my dad snoring. Did he just close the door to the hallway? And so it dawned on me, he closed the hallway door. So now I’m separated by a closed door. I opened that door and I realized the door to his bedroom is closed. So I opened that one, and he’s actually hanging from the closet door.
Meg Glesener:
Oh my gosh.
With and first I’m mad, where the heck did he find something to hang himself? But then I’m like, wait, he’s hanging. And so here I am, 11 years old, trying to lift my dad, who probably weighed about 190 to 200 pounds at the time, five 10, I think five nine. And he’s not budging. And I remember screaming out please God, no. And just crying my dad in the face to wake up and <laugh>, sorry. And the rope snaps,
And that’s the crazy part. Please God no. And the rope snaps, and he hits the ground. He lets out a big grunt. I don’t know how to check for breathing. So I run out, I’m screaming for my brother to come help my dad’s dead. So my brother runs in and he’s reviving my dad. So my dad’s kind of waking up and he seems okay, my dad’s, that was the breaking point for my dad. No more attempted suicide. That was too far. He just realized, I think the moment he committed, he regretted it. But he had already committed, he’d already passed out. And he said his last thoughts before passing out were about my brother and I.
Oh, wow.
And he saw that our faces, and that was it, like turning point for him. But again, please don’t tell your mom. We’re like, we’re not going to her. She’s done this. Now I’m blaming my mom. She’s done this to us.
And my brother’s a little mad because this was on my watch, and he’s younger. He was nine.
What was he mad about?
Just how could you let him close two doors on you? The, that’s a rule. We, for a nine year old and a 10 year old, we had a very codified way of life. No sharp objects, nothing you can hang around your neck. We deliver your meds for you. We call you when you get to get to work. You call us when you’re about to come home. We time everything. No closed doors, you know, need to go to the bathroom, the door’s open. One of us is at the doorway. You take a shower at the doorway. One of us is at home with you at all times. You go shopping, one of us is going with you, that kind of thing. And the deal is we don’t tell mom. And so we had all that, and there’s just, of course, he’s nine and he’s mad about that. And now we’re trying to figure out where do we go from here?
I can’t lift the guy. We just lucked out. Turns out the other thing that we lucked out on is that lanyard, he had his hands on, put a red mark on his neck from left to, so it looked like somebody had tried to slit his throat. And the army has a dress code and you can’t deviate from that. So he’s trying his best to hide his neck. But the first thing his platoon sergeant notices is that he’s got a red mark across his neck, and he’s like, Hey, Sergeant Dugan, what’s going on with your neck? What happened there? And so he finds out that my dad isn’t just depressed. My dad has been going through ideations of suicide and has actually been trying to commit suicide. And immediately, sergeant First Class Moss jumps into action, notifies the chain of command. We got to get help for Sergeant Duggan hurting way more than we realized that this is what just happened.
This is what went down. And I get a phone call and it’s Sergeant Moss, I’m at home the summer, and he’s asking me what happened. And I don’t want to tell him because it’s kind of the extension of the rule. Don’t tell mom, well, don’t tell this guy. That’s my dad’s boss. But he reassures me that it’s okay, we’re trying to help your dad. We’re going to help you. Why is it you wouldn’t want to tell me? And I was like, well, we don’t want to be sent to my mom and her boyfriend because we don’t know him. He’s going to throw us out. He threw my dad out. He’s like, we’re not going to let that happen.
What did it feel like to you to have somebody say, we’re not going to let this happen to you. Did you feel, because here you’ve been, you and your brother have been the parents of your family, and you’re a little kid. You’re a little kid with all of this pressure. Did that feel in kind of encouraging, you’re probably daring to hope that you could trust this person?
Jerry Dugan:
I knew in some way I could trust him. He was the first person who took us in when we got into country. So he’s the guy who picked us up from the airport. He and his wife gave us a dinner. Turns out my dad worked with him at another duty station before this. So my dad had a lot of trust for him, and it was just the way he said it, like, we’re not going to let that happen to you. We’re going to help your dad. We’re going to help you. I just knew I could open up and tell him. Yeah. He hung himself yesterday and he goes, okay, how long has this been going on since the day we got here? And he goes, okay, we’re help is on the way. Your dad is coming over. He’s going to pick up some things. I’m going to be there with him.
We’re going to have another guy there with us. We got to get your brother packed. You packed. You’re going to live with another family just until your dad’s getting the help he needs and everything’s going to be fine. We we’re going to keep you near your dad. So yeah, we get picked up. We we’re going through a physical screening because we’re going to be placed with a foster family. Never, I mean, only knew about foster families, what you hear about in tv. They’re like, oh no. Oh, no, no, no. We screen all the foster families. They’re vetted by the military, and if they mess up, the United States government is coming after them. These guys are good. We got families.
And you’ll always be able to reach out to your dad if you ever need to. The family, they’re going to provide you a home with some structure, some love and connection with your dad, and then your dad’s going to be able to heal and be taken care of, knowing that nothing else is going to be taken away from him. So yeah, my dad goes off to a mental health ward and inpatient care, and he’s getting the help he needs to talk through everything he’s going through. And then my brother and I go off to, I believe it’s the O’Neill family retired military guy. I think he was in the Air Force and he was married to a German national, been married, I think, well over 15 years or so, maybe 20 years. They have a family of three boys, and we just come into this family and they just love on us. Turns out they’re Christians. We didn’t really have a regular Christian upbringing. And so they’re praying at every meal, and they are resolving conflict through discussion as people not trying to choke each other out.
And so I’m like, wait, you guys don’t fight when you’re mad at each other? No, we go into timeout, we calm down, and then we have discussions, and these are the kids talking like this. We’re like, how old are you guys? Same age as you guys. That’s how we got paired up. And I’m like, this is so weird. We don’t understand. And then they take us on family vacation with them so they don’t send us off somewhere else because they’re going on vacation. They don’t halt their vacation because of that. They just stay in communication with my dad. And the folks oversee in the relationship, and they take us on family vacation with them. We saw family done in a loving way probably for the first time in our lives. No spankings, nobody getting yelled at. Yeah, just a different way of doing life.
Meg Glesener:
Was your mom aware that you were, did you get to talk with her at all at this point? Was she made aware of what’s going on or was there not much talk with your mom? So she didn’t know for a few weeks or something?
Jerry Dugan:
I wrote some letters, but I don’t think I shared with her the details. I think she knew that my dad was sick and had to go to the hospital and that we were staying with a family, taking care of us. So we did kind of keep it that way, but I don’t think my mom had the means to actually knowing this now, my mom didn’t really have the legal means to take action and take us, let alone take care of us. And on top of that her boyfriend definitely didn’t want the children to come along with this relationship. The fact that my mom came out to Alabama to be with him was already too much. And so for the kids to show up as well, he was after a bet and a relationship. He was not after a long-term relationship and taking care of somebody else’s children. And so we didn’t know that then. But looking back with adult eyes, it’s like, oh yeah, that guy was never going to be on board with that.
Meg Glesener:
Right. Were you at school at this time where all this was going on? Or were you enrolled in, what did that look like for you?
Jerry Dugan:
At the end of fifth grade? So we had transferred into a department of Defense dependent school system. So yeah, in class with other American kids whose families were stationed in Germany. And then that’s when summertime hit, and then that’s when my dad had that turning point. So a lot of the bulk of it was happening during the summertime. But then, yeah, my dad gets transferred to Walter Reed, I guess early August. So we moved to New Jersey to live with my aunt, the one that matched my parents up to begin with. And my uncle Bill. My uncle Bill at Fort Dicks, New Jersey. And so we’re going to school in Trenton, New Jersey. And now I feel less at home than I did when I was with the foster family but still reassured that I’m going to be reunite, reunited with my dad. And we do get reunited with my dad. He gets to stay in the military. He actually wins sole custody. So despite having this mental health break that he was still considered the better parent to take care of my brother and I , to keep us intact. And he gets restationed to Fort Ord California. And that’s why we wind up there. And then I find out that the extended family kind of sucks.
Meg Glesener:
Oh no.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah. So divorce became the thing to do in the Duggan family. So I had multiple uncles going through divorce, I think. And so all these families are being broken apart. Some cousins are handling it well, and I’m close with them still to this day. And other cousins and one of the uncles going through divorce, they decide they’re going to take it out on other people. So who better to take it out on than the half breed chink in the family or gook, or boat person, whatever they wanted to call me. And just being one of the smaller guys, I was I guess easier to pick on.
Meg Glesener:
They really called you all those names Jerry.
Jerry Dugan:
Oh, they did. Yeah.
Meg Glesener:
Oh man, I’m so sorry.
Jerry Dugan:
Oh, no, that’s right. Character building, I guess. No, I’m kidding. No, it was horrible. <laugh>
Meg Glesener:
Just, yeah, ouch.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, being driven mostly by the uncle, and he thought he was tough stuff for that. And I’m, again, 11 going on 12 and thinking, wait, isn’t this a grown man kind of picking on me and the other cousins kind of gang up on with him and the neighbor’s kid who was the Eddie Haskell in the neighborhood, he’s piling on, and my dad’s leaning on this family for support emotionally and reconnecting with him. But he was unaware that there was this other side happening. So where he’s getting some support from grandma, grandpa and other aunts and uncles. I’m being picked on in the backyard by everybody else. And so a lot of bullying going on from age 11 to age 14. So just when you thought you left hell, it’s like, no, it’s more, and it’s coming from your own family.
Meg Glesener:
I’m guessing, I’m guessing you probably had already learned that your needs couldn’t be brought to your dad. So you boys just quietly dealt with that because you knew unspokenly that you couldn’t add to his plate, right?
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. He wasn’t in the spot where he could handle that. And I think by the time I was about 13, 14, I did start to speak up, or it did start to spill over because I used this family that would still pick on me, would now tell on me when I fought back. And so my dad is expecting me to act better and behave and be better than they are. And I think deep down, he knew how rotten they were and just hoped that I would play the peacemaker in this. And while this is going on, I’m in middle school and I’m getting picked on there because I, I’ve always had a big forehead. So you know, decide to comb your hair back and you have a big forehead, people feel like they’re entitled to slap it. So got picked on there.
Got picked on by another kid who just, he bullied kids and thought his mullet was cool. So it was just like, yeah, middle school was a time of getting picked on and wondering, is this really what life’s supposed to be like? And at one point though, I remember standing up to the uncle, so he’s picking on everybody and he says something stupid. There was a phrase he said all the time, I don’t know if he still says it, I don’t really care. But when he was having a moody day, he would walk into the room where the other cousins were all playing, and if we were being too loud, he’d be like, the word to the wise is sufficient. And everybody would quiet up or quiet down. And I’m looking at him, what word? <laugh>, like you haven’t said anything. And so by 14 three years of this, I’m like, I’m done. I’m like, I’m going to lose the fight, but I’m going to hurt people in the process and I’m short enough, I can hurt him where it counts. So I’m like, what word? Uncle? You haven’t said any word. You just came in and said the word to the why is sufficient, but there is no word. You got to have a word to be sufficient. You’re not sufficient. And so I’m like, now the straight A’s are coming. Yeah,
Speaker 5:
Hashtag boldness.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah, the straight A’s are coming out of me now. I’m like, we’re going to talk some grammar here. You’re going to feel like an idiot because you are. And so now I’m mouthing off to him, and my grandpa even takes his side, Hey, you need to respect your elders in this house. I’m like, this elder needs to respect that elder. If you’re asking me, I understand how the hierarchy works. He is an unemployed, middle-aged man living under your roof and disrespecting the peace in your roof by picking on one of your grandchildren. Well, you don’t talk to me like that. You need to know your place. That’s my grandpa. And now uncle has closed the gap between us and he’s in my face now. He’s, the word of the wise is sufficient. Then you need to say something. And now he’s choking me out, and now I’m punching and kicking and scratching and gouging, and everybody’s kind of cheering on the uncle that I can recall.
I get away and I decide that’s it, I’m done. And I hide in the garage and I just stay there for hours. My dad is out on a shopping trip for my grandpa. So again, oblivious to all this. And when he comes home, he’s just like, where’s my son? And they’re trying to tell him what a horrible kid I am. He’s like, no, seriously, where’s my son? And now they’re in a position where they got, they’re, they’re trying to tell him how I was lashing out and I was hurting people and I was doing this and that. And I think my brother finally got his courage and stood up and said no they were picking on Jerry and Jerry fought uncle. And so my dad just turned to the uncle like, you hit my son? Now Gentle Giant is flipping the switch to military policemen with army training.
And you hit my son, you fought my son, you a grown man, fought my 14 year old son, and you’ve been doing this for a while? And grandpa speaks up, I’m in the garage, I can hear a whole thing going down. I’m like, I, I’m going to let them think I ran away.
You’re like, yeah, dad.
Yeah, my dad’s standing up like he’s now aware this is what’s going on. And he just bucks up and says, my son does not need to come here anymore. I’m going to find him. I’m going to take him home. He doesn’t have to come here anymore. And if he chooses, he doesn’t have a family on this side of the family. I support him in that. And yeah, he went to the garage. He knew, I guess he knew I was in the garage and I cried. I told him, see, I told you.
And he is like, we can go now. You don’t have to come here anymore. And so that was kind of a turning point for me. Now my hell was over in a sense, and my dad kind of found some strength, get through high school, get through college. Now I’m just learning how to be a normal human being, join the army because I’m broke. I have horrible grades and I still think I need to be a doctor. At some point, I don’t even know one specific point. I know there was an eventual moment where I drew a line in the sand, and it was around the time of that fight with the family. And I think I still came up for a Christmas. I think some of my aunts pled with me and said, come up, we’ll be there. You don’t have to hang out with those cousins.
They’re jerks anyway but come up and be with family. And there were just sort of this aha moment. I reflected on where the family was as a whole. The extended family was going, the trajectory of them. And they were just wallowing in misery. They wanted to wallow in misery. The dream that they were kind of casting on their children was, you know, can get emancipated at 16 and draw social security or SSI and you’ll be set for life. And I’m like, there, there’s so much more out there. And I think God, up to this point, had planted enough seeds in front of me to say, your path doesn’t have to follow the one that they’re on. And you know, can go a different direction. Your life in relationships doesn’t have to follow what your dad has gone through. You’ve already seen an example of your grandparents have been married 50 years and they’re not even the best relationship out there.
So relationships can go the long haul. You’ve seen a family in Germany that that’s what it looks like when it’s built on love and forgiveness and grace. They walk the talk. And it was just all that kind of culminated for me to say. And I kind of repeated this message in Christmas cards and I gave ’em out to the people in the family I liked. And it was just sort of a one day I’m going to show you that we can go a different direction, this family and the Dugan name will be one that garners inspiration and not security to follow you around the store. And it was something to that effect. And I gave that out. And it was kind of like that Joseph, in the old Testament moment when he is telling everybody, you’re going to bow me. And they were like, no, we’re not.
It was almost as bold as that. But it was coming from a place of I want people to follow me, my cousins who, any of ’em, if you want to change the trajectory of your life, don’t follow my path to the T, but just know it’s possible there. There’s a building in Corpus Christi that’s sponsored by a Doctor Dugan not related, but I remember taking a picture and sending it out to those same cousins and saying, look, our name can go on a wall of a building and it’s not a most wanted poster, that kind of thing. So it was just, just little tidbits there. There’s a different way, there’s a different path and we have the ability to change that course. And so that was 14 years old thinking that way.
Meg Glesener:
That’s incredible. Was there a faith element in your story?
Jerry Dugan:
God, I think was letting me know he was there and I wasn’t paying attention fully until well after for Operation Iraqi Freedom. So when I was growing up, there were friends of ours who would take my brother and I to church, but we would go just because we’d get cookies punch and we could play in the playground. I didn’t know anything about Jesus and kind of didn’t care at the time. And then when I was about 14 years old, I remember saying a prayer for something. Well, I mean had premarital sex at 14. And I remember freaking out though and praying, oh dear God, I hope she didn’t get pregnant because I’m not ready to be a dad. I’m 14. And the next day there’s a knock at our door and it’s Jehovah’s Witnesses. And I remember making a deal with God, though, I will learn about you if you make sure she’s not pregnant.
And there they are knocking on the door. And I’m like, so whatever you believe about Jehovah’s Witnesses or not, that was the answered prayer at the time was the next day they knocked on the door. And I’m like, oh wow. So you guys know about God? Yeah, I’ll study with you guys. So they were kind of my introduction into Jesus on a deeper level, but I didn’t use it for good. I was the smart Alec kid who was already a chip on my shoulder. So now I’m using what I’m learning and making my Catholic friends question themselves and making my Protestant friends question their faith and mm-hmm. Making some enemies of friends in a sense. But one of my friends kind of said one day, you’re going to be a preacher. I’m like, ohm not. He was like the Bible. I’m like, no, I’m a free thinker.
I used to say that because that’s what all the other atheists say, right, right. I’m a free thinker. I read more than just one book. So yeah, college broke, need a job, need some medical training. So I wind up in the army as an enlisted person. I tell my dad, Hey, guess what I did? He’s like, what? I joined the army silence on the phone because one of his talks to me was, as I went into high school, you could do whatever you want in your life. You’re going to do way better than I did. The only thing I’ll tell you not to do is other than don’t ever get arrested and let me get a call from the police, is don’t ever join the army. And if you do go in as an officer. So here I am with a college degree bachelor’s in chemistry biology, and I enlisted as a combat medic going in as a specialist E four. So not even an officer. I’m going in as an enlisted guy, just like my dad. But now I’m a medic, so that makes it better. I’m not a military policeman, I’m not infantry. I’m going in as a medic, I’m going to get medical experience. And my dad’s just like, you could have gone in as an officer and they would’ve paid your bills and you can go to medical school later, nursing school, whatever you want. I’m like, ah, this is the way I’m doing it.
Meg Glesener:
It was the doctor in you.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah. And just the proud me too. I’m doing it my way now. So I go to Fort Sill Oklahoma, which is where I was born. I think that was the army just being the army because they’re like, oh, this guy will do a lot of pushups. So every time we fill out paperwork at Fort Sill, Oklahoma, and I’ll get to that line that says birthplace, and I’m writing Fort Sill, Oklahoma. The drill sergeants think I’m being a smart alec and being stupid. And they’re like, Hey, it says birthplace dummy. And I’m like, that is my birthplace. Oh, you’re talking back to me. Pushups. I was good at pushups in the Army. I get stationed in Germany. It’s kind of a lonely time. I kind of get the reputation of, I like to go to the field because first day on the job, my boss asks me if I want to go to Kosovo and be a part of this team of Go-getters who are going to Kosovo.
And I said yes. And then she’d told me she’d been assembling this team for two or three months now, so I wouldn’t be going alone. What I didn’t know was I was the first one to say yes after two or three months. So because of me, other people had to fall in line because the new guy showed up and he volunteered right away. And so I didn’t have a lot of friends right away. I eventually did, but we had to sift through everything and realize, oh, it’s because the platoon sergeant lied to you and recruited you basically. I was like, yeah,
Meg Glesener:
There you are. Setting the curve again, Jerry.
Jerry Dugan:
Exactly. Yeah. Didn’t mean to. So I got a deployment to Kosovo. It was a wonderful seven months in the year 2000 came back by then Liv, my wife is she’s in the army. She wasn’t my wife yet. And I come off the bus from the airport in Germany to our base, and we’re having our homecoming, and the folks with families are meeting up with their families and the single soldiers are just mingling with all the other single soldiers. And a friend of mine, she introduces me to Olivia and says, Hey, this is Private Morales. She’s new to our unit, she’s in our platoon. And I remember Liv saying to me, Hey, nice glasses. I’ve got the same kind. And I was sitting here thinking, did I get girl glasses? No, these are unisex. Cool. Yeah, great. Yeah, cute glasses. Those are really nice. So she didn’t date me for three months.
I was like, I didn’t think you were interested. She was like, I was dropping hints. And I was like, what? And then she told me some hints, do you think I really wanted hot dogs at one in the morning? I’m like, oh, <laugh>, after I had just eaten at McDonald’s. And she’s like, yeah, I knew you were full, but I just wanted to hang out with you for a couple more hours. I’m like, oh, then. So anyway, yeah, we got married a few months after that. She was already pregnant with who would be our first born son, and I stayed in the army. She got out and 911 happened. So then I went to Fort Benning and then Global War on terror meant that by 2003 I was going to Kuwait with third infantry division. And I was also on the way out of the army, not really going to church.
So you asked me if there was a faith element to my story and not really. My wife had a tugging on her heart that we needed to go to church. We’re a family now we’re in the us, things have kind of settled down. We’ve survived 9 11, and my husband’s about to go to war, so he needs to have God with him, and I would like to have that over our family. And I’m like, yeah, we could shop around still Mr. Atheist, I’m smarter than God, kind of thing. But then in Kuwait, up until I think we got stop lost, I thought we were just bluffing Saddam Hussein. So this is in 2003, January through March 2003. But then it starts to dawn on me, okay, we did a stop loss. We got three or four divisions in country. You don’t bring this much fire power to bluff.
You bring this much fire power to use it. And I remember the day that the war kicked off, March 19th, scud missiles are flying from Iraq into Kuwait. We’re getting ready to shoot and blow up all his guard towers along the border. We’re about to drive through a minefield after that where we plowed, wow, three-lane roads all up and down the border. We’re going to do it in the middle of the night with night vision goggles on. So I’m like, this is kind of cool. Wait, we could blow up on the first wave. That sucks. So I start doing the math. I’m like, okay, once we get into the city, we’re expecting a certain number of casualties. I’m the kind of guy that gets killed in training, all the training exercises. I become a casualty because I keep running in too fast and trying to be a hero, and I’m going to die on this thing.
And I remember making a deal with God, and it was God, if you’re real, I’m putting on my chemical suit as I’m doing. So I’m in my boxer shorts, my desert, camouflage top, and putting my chemical suit pants on. I’m like, God, if you’re real, then you better replace me with somebody better. Somebody’s going to love my wife as I do, but better. And somebody’s going to raise my children as if they’re his own children and raise them to be good people and break that cycle that my family was in. And that’s all I’m asking for. If you’re real, you’ll make that happen. And that was my prayer. And wow, I think I immediately wrote a letter in the movies. They always have that in case I die letter and they hand it to their buddy to hand off. But I also convinced I was going to die that I wrote my letter and I disguised the wording just enough so it didn’t freak my wife out when she read it, but it was there.
Everything I would want to say to her was in that letter, I folded it and I mailed it that night. It was one last mail run before we crossed the border. And I send that. So I’m done. I’m going to die on this thing. This is going to suck. And yeah, we go through the war we wind up in Baghdad, and I’m probably behaving in a way that,
And you didn’t die? That might.
I didn’t die. In fact I wind up back in Kuwait, we’re getting ready to go back to the United States, and I’m realizing, God, he’s not real. He brought me back. I didn’t die. So no need for that deal. And well, we’ll see about that. We get back home to the States. This is July, maybe. Yeah, July, almost August 2003. We have the homecoming you see on the internet and the movies, and then it’s time to go home.
My mom and my, I’m now stepdad they come down to see the Homecoming. So probably sounded like I was trash talking to my mom earlier. But I mean, we’ve got a good relationship today and it took a lot of healing. We’re there. My brother drove in from California to help my wife go from Texas back to Georgia. So this is Fort Benning Georgia. So my brother’s there, my mom is there, my stepdad, Liv is there. She’s holding our son. I think my brother’s holding my daughter. I hadn’t met her yet. She’s three months old. She was born while I was deployed, and she’s my little baby girl. Because I remember the day she was born, and we probably don’t have time for that one, but she was definitely a turning point for me from becoming a monster in Iraq to I’ve got to pull my stuff together and be a better dad for her.
And again, I still thought I was going to die. So I was thinking I got to leave a good memory for my daughter to follow and a good memory for my son. So I got to act in a way that will honor the two of them. But here I am in Georgia holding them for the first time thinking, wow, how did this happen? How am I here? It’s time to get in our cars. My brother rides with my mom and Dave. He’s my stepdad. I’m riding home with Liv, and I think we have Emma with us in the car, but Jacob goes with my mom. Yeah, because I mean she, she’s just always doting on my kids.
That’s sweet. <laugh>
Yeah. So yeah, we’re driving home and Liv is saying, Hey, I got something I need to share with you. When she said that, I was like, oh boy, this is either she’s going to tell me that she had somebody on the side this entire time, or that we got new furniture and I’m sitting here, please let it be new furniture.
Please let it be new furniture. Because that was the briefing we got from our chaplain was when you get home that big bonus, all that combat tax free pay, you thought you got it. Either went to new furniture or a new boyfriend. If you got new furniture, say thank you to your wife, she took care of the home while you were gone and had to go through a lot of stress. If it turns out it was a boyfriend, reach out to me, the chaplain, and we’ll talk. We’ll get you through this. So I’m in the driver’s seat, actually, I think in the passenger seat she’s driving because I don’t know where we live now. And I’m just thinking to myself, please, new furniture. New furniture. And that’s why I asked her, did we get new furniture? She said, yes, we did get new furniture but that’s not what I needed to ask or tell you about.
I’m like, we got a computer too? She’s like, yeah, we got you a computer too. Like, but there’s more. She goes, yeah, this is something very important, so I need to, I’m like, wait, no, the deal was furniture or boyfriend. I don’t get furniture and boyfriend that. That’s not fair. I didn’t tell her that. That’s in my head. But she goes on to tell me that while I was deployed, she was really scared for me. And I knew that because it’d been in some of her letters even at a point where we were on the news, third infantry divisions going into a battle, and two men in uniform came up to the door and she thought, oh, no, no, no.
Oh my goodness. Ooh.
It turned out to be two recruiters because again, my wife was in the Army as well. So there were two recruiters from the reserves trying to ask her if she would like to re-up and join the military before another stop loss brought her in, and she was so mad at them.
She was like, my husband is in Iraq right now and he’s in third infantry division. And they just said on the news that they’re in a battle and then you two show up in uniform. And when she said that and they saw she’s pregnant because our daughter wasn’t born yet at that time and they clicked, they were like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We are not that. We’re leaving now and we’re going to lift up your husband in prayer. What’s his name? Okay, we’re going to keep him in mind. We’re going to think about him. We’re not coming back until he comes home. So we’re sorry. We’re going to note it on our roster. We’re not bugging you anymore. Is there anything you need from us? So I still crack up about that story. She, doesn’t, worst day of the entire campaign was that day, but she shared that she had been praying the entire time I was gone.
And she knew I was kind of like, Mr. Atheist, I’m smarter than God, but I was shopping churches with her to kind of, I guess entertain her or please her, but I wasn’t really into it. So she goes on to say, I’ve been praying the whole time you were gone. I prayed for your safety. I prayed for you to come home safely. And she made a deal with him that if God would bring me back in one piece, that she would do everything she could to make sure her entire family went through the church and that her children got raised through the church. And she said, I can’t guarantee that Jerry will become a Christian, but I’ll at least bring him to church and I’ll let you do the work. And she’s making that deal with God. <laugh> starting the same day that hold on. Starting the same day that I made my prayer, God, if you’re real, you’ll replace me with somebody who’s better. And oh man, <laugh>
Meg Glesener:
Dang. And it’s like, wait, you’re the better guy.
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah, <laugh>, my voice cracked there. Yeah. I didn’t learn until years later. God makes you a new creation when you accept him. And I didn’t know that. Then in 2003, on March 19th when making that ultimatum to God, if you’re real, you’re going to do this. But my wife’s on another side of the world making this deal. If you bring him home, oh, I’ll bring him to church. And <laugh> years later, I received Jesus as my savior in 2005. I’d say it’s another five years before I’m leading a men’s group study. And we get to that verse. I don’t even know the verse. I just remember reading it to my group that you’ll be made a new creation in Christ. And my pastor’s dad is in the group cause he wanted to make sure I showed up or something, I don’t know. But yeah, he’s kind of breaking it down and it hit me like, wow, okay, guys, I need to take a break.
And then they ask me why. And I tell them this story. And it’s really the first time I shared this story with anybody outside of all myself because it clicked. I’m like, wow. Even before I knew God and had a relationship with God, he already had his hand in my life. He was already reaching out to me, Hey, I’m here for you. And it was in that moment, at that table in 2010, just getting this flashback all the way times where friends took me to church, the time I cried out to God when I was 11 and asked God to help my dad asking for learning about Jesus a little bit more, and I got what I got. It’s just all those moments kind of clicking back into place like, Hey, how you’ve gone through this journey? Well, let me show you where I’ve been the whole time.
Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And this is where it all wind up. You’re just like, what the heck? Now what do I do? And so it just kind of hit me, I need to serve other men. I need to show them that it is possible. We don’t have to wind up in divorce. We don’t have to abuse our children. We definitely don’t have to abuse our wives. We don’t have to abuse anybody for that matter, that we could be tender warriors for our families. We could show them there’s a new way. Being a follower of Christ isn’t all kumbaya and let’s hold hands. There’s a toughness to it. And so around that time, I was a realtor, but I needed a job, and so I become a community educator with a women’s battered women’s shelter. So I learned about that dark world. I also get involved with the men’s ministry at my church.
I start probably around 2011, no, 2013, I do a TEDx talk in Corpus Christi about strength in manhood. And it just happened on my heart to start a podcast. Let’s showcase this. So that’s where Family Time Q and A podcast came in was I want to just demonstrate when I listen to family shows about Christian families, it always seems so structured and in scripted that the husband and wife want to demonstrate so badly that they’re a good well-oiled machine as a couple, that sometimes there’s too much of a script, especially when they bring their kids on. You can tell they’re leading their kids in the questions. And there were a couple of that episode I heard that did that back in 2013. I thought, what if I had a show where my family asked me questions and I had no time to prepare and there was no script and they could call me out.
They had full permission to call me out and it’ll be a father-son show. I’m like, yeah, we’ll do this. So I remember getting home and pitching this to my son. He’s probably about 11 or 12, pitched the idea to him, and he’s like, do I have to? I was like, oh. But then my Mini Me, my nine year old daughter, she’s like, wait, you want to start a show? Yeah, let’s talk. So I tell her my idea and she says, no, no, no, no, we’re going to flip it too. So I asked you a question you’re not ready for, but you can ask me a question and I’m not ready for it. I was like, great, when do we start? She goes, today. I’m like, I don’t have any equipment. I don’t know how to host the show. She goes, you got a phone? Hit record on that thing, voice memo. I’m like, and she’s, I’m like, but I don’t know where to post it afterwards. She goes, figure it out. We got the internet. And I’m like, how old are you?
Meg Glesener:
Nine year old. I love that.
Jerry Dugan:
We record our first episode of Family Time Q and A, and she calls me out on the very first episode, and she looks me in the eye. I used to rage quit on video games, and that was her question. She goes, how you get mad when you play video games with your son? I’m like, yeah, well stop. It wasn’t even a question. It was just like the question was, do you know how you do that? I was like, yeah. And she’s like, well, stop it. And I was like, hold on. I think that’s all the time we have for this show. And she’s like, she’s laughing because she knows she got me. And everything I said had to be true or otherwise, I just told my daughter, I’m a liar and I want to present the fake me to the world. So we did that show for think 86 episodes rotating every week. So one week it was my daughter, another week it’d be my son. Week after that it would be my wife. And then went on for about two and a half years, two years, and then got picked up for Beyond the Rut.
Meg Glesener:
Jerry, it’s so encouraging here that God put the same heart in you. You’re Olivia making that prayer, and here you are now walking with the Lord with your family.
Jerry Dugan:
Oh yeah. As we kept going to Bay Area fellowship, I noticed that over time she wasn’t getting called to go to the back to pick her up because she was crying too much. And one day, so this is now I come home, what? Mid 2003? It’s now 2005. I still have not received Jesus as my savior, and I’m looking for any reason to jump out of there. Oh, hey, our daughter is crying again. I’ll go. But around 2005, a couple of months had gone by Emma. My daughter really didn’t need us to come out anymore. She was probably almost two years old, but I mean, she would always cry every Sunday but for a few months she wasn’t. And one day my pastor at Bay Area Fellowship just said during the closing prayer, he’s like, Hey I’m going to put it on your heart now. And I mean, God’s got put it on my heart to say this to you.
You’ve been shopping around enough on whether or not you’re going to join God’s house and God’s kingdom and God’s family. When are you going to put a ring on that finger and just <laugh> commit to what you already know exists? You already know it’s there. And where I’ve been, commit, and I’m thinking, how does he know <laugh>? Like I even looked up and around for a little bit, I’m like, how does he know <laugh> fine, I’ll do it. And I committed. And that’s when I gave my heart to the Lord and surrendered my life to him. And then I learned what I really committed to. And I’m like, oh, wow. So it’s been a wonderful ride ever since. Yeah 2005 received, Jesus probably got baptized another couple months after that, heard about this thing called tithing in church. I was like, I’m not giving my money. So I’m still a new believer.
I’m like, I’m not, I’m in, but I’m not, hold on a sec. You’re talking about my paycheck now. I’ll donate my time. And so that’s when I started serving in my church. I joined up with the video ministry and before we knew it, they had us as city ministry directors pulling together a volunteer team to help fill the seats at the weekend to remember marriage conferences. And we did that for a few years. And I mean, it’s just been an upward trajectory as far as career goes, as far as just applying, I guess my gifts and talents finally. And it’s just weird seeing all that click into place. And that’s kind of what led me into podcasting was my work at the shelter combined with my education and training and educational technology and my current work now. I mean, it’s almost two decades worth of learning and development in the corporate setting.
Meg Glesener:
And you’ve been podcasting for eight years?
Jerry Dugan:
Eight years, yeah.
Meg Glesener:
One of the OGs of podcasting right here, guys, <laugh> The Real Jerry Duggan. Go look that one up.
Jerry Dugan:
I know. Family Time Q and A. Oh, geez. Oh man.
Meg Glesener:
Is there a scripture that you feel like just really speaks to you in your life? Yours in Oliva’s lives?
Jerry Dugan:
Oh gosh. The one that drives me the most when it comes to the work I do and how I live my life would be Colossians three verses 23, 24. So whatever you do work at it with all your heart is if you’re working for the Lord and not for man. And I think the rest of it has to do with, because your treasures in heaven and you’re really preparing for that. I’m paraphrasing that second verse, but the first verse is, throw everything you’ve got into it as if you’re working for God, not for man. And it allows me to hold myself to a higher standard when everybody else wants to quit and hanging up and give up. I’m willing to put in the extra time, time because I’m not doing it for the other people around me. I’m doing it for God. It’s kind of like the reason why I’m continuing Beyond the Rut. The other two guys have hung it up and it’s still in my heart like, no, carry on. You’re, you’re not doing it for those two guys. You’re not doing it for yourself. You’re doing it for me.
Meg Glesener:
Before we seal, love the envelope on this story of encouragement, I have prepared bonus material for you that we like to call the ps. Sure. To make you smile and be moved within your heart as you see a bit more of the heart and personality of our guest.
Announcer 3:
Here is your PS.
Meg Glesener:
Are you ready for some bonus questions?
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah, let’s do it.
Meg Glesener: Inquiring minds want to know, Jerry, do you have any hidden talents or party tricks?
Jerry Dugan:
Oh geez. I think I shared with a few folks. I’ve got what I call useless army skills. Yeah. So shadow tipping. And every time I bring that up, people are like, what’s shadow tipping? And I’m like, all right, so let’s say you’re in the woods, you’re lost and you don’t have a compass. Your battery died on your cell phone. So you have no GPS. How do you know which way is which? And so all you need is a stick in the ground and a rock. So you put the stick in the ground and you look at where the tip of that shadow is, and you put your rock down, boom. And that’s west. Because as the sun goes from east to west, your shadow is going from west to east. So you just wait about 15, 20 minutes on a sunny day. That tip of that shadow is going to move eastward. And so you kind of need a second rock because after about the 15 to 20 minutes, you put the second rock down, you now have a line going from left to right west to east, and you bisect that 90 degrees, you got your north and south, you now know you now have a compass. And if you know home is West, then you go that way, even though it’s east, you go the other way south and so on.
Meg Glesener:
Do you have a song that’s on repeat in your playlist?
Jerry Dugan:
Oh gosh. I mean,
Meg Glesener:
I have something about surprise people.
Jerry Dugan:
One that has been in my head for no particular reason other than I think it sounds cool is Woman’s Song by the Hue, and they’re a Mongolian throat singing rock group. I <laugh>
Meg Glesener:
Like, Hey, I mean, I’m going to have to look it up. Yeah, I mean, sounds like a good one to prepare for your podcast interview with
Jerry Dugan:
<laugh>. I don’t know mean they speak some broken English. I think they, it’s been a few years. Maybe they speak English better now. I love the sound. It’s Mongolian throat singing, which I normally wouldn’t be into, but they fused it in with heavy metal. And when you listen to the lyric, when you see the lyrics, a lot of it is like some chest pumping like manly songs. But this one is about, it’s a tribute to their mothers, and it’s a very touching song when you see the translation, you’re like, oh wow.
Meg Glesener:
So with your time in the military, what did you learn? Did you have any big life takeaway lessons that you learned?
Jerry Dugan:
There are a lot of lessons you learned in the military. I would say the big three takeaways that they instill with you on day one and beyond is your team is counting on you. So when you get into basic training, everything’s about breaking down your individuality, not to break down your soul, but to break down your selfishness and to think about your team. Because the second thing you learn is you depend on your team. So your team depends on you. And so if you’re going off doing your own thing, making your own mistakes, just being selfish, you’re not just hurting yourself, you’re hurting everybody on your team. And then vice versa, you got to be able to trust your team to do their best because you’re depending on them to do that, depending on them to show up on time to do their job, and to help you if you need it.
And vice versa. The third lesson, it’s a little bit more morbid, but as you move up in the ranks in the army, you start to realize why it’s important. And that is your life can go at any given moment and you know, just got to appreciate it. From a leadership perspective, that also means you have a responsibility to pour into the next generation. So the people who report to you got to be able to do your job in case you die on the battlefield. Because if you die and you didn’t prepare your team, they die too. And so it’s almost, I’ve taken that to heart when it comes to parenting. So pour into my children everything. I know who I am, what I believe in because when I’m gone, that’s all they’ve got left. And if I prepared them, great, and if I didn’t, it’s on them to figure out for themselves.
Meg Glesener:
What do you see as the greatest need in the church today? What can we improve on?
Jerry Dugan:
Showcasing the grace filled element of who we are as Christ followers. We have seasons where we do really good at that. Maybe it’s on the holidays like Christmas, Thanksgiving or after a tragedy like 9 11. We’re good about showing grace. And then we kind of back off and we become about being holier than you, and we start judging folks. Just name it somebody who’s addicted to drugs. Oh man, you’re a horrible person. You make terrible choices. And it’s like, yeah, that’s true. How do we love that person? Oh man, you’re horrible. You’re involved with same sex attraction. That’s an abomination. It’s like, okay, yeah, the Bible says that, but how do we as Christ followers love that person? What do we demonstrate to show love other than thumping them in the head with the Bible? And I think we as a church can do better.
Absolutely.
Back off the condemnation and demonstrate more of the Jesus who hung out with prostitutes and tax collectors and treated them with dignity or treated ’em with respect because he honored their dignity. So
Meg Glesener:
Where’s the best place for people to find you? So I mean your podcast beyond the Rut is in all the places, but would you want people to go to your new website? Is it ready?
Jerry Dugan:
Yeah the website I took over almost, I would say almost immediately. So I’ve in charge of the website now. I have the, and that’s beyondtherut.com Brandon transferred , that over me. Mine now. No, I’m kidding. So beyond the Rut <laugh> beyond the rut.com, if you’d already been following, it’s still the same look, same field. It’s got a couple of updates to it. We’re also on Instagram, Twitter, both of those are Beyond the Rut. We’re on Facebook Beyond the Rut. I keep saying we because five and a half years of habit. So it’s just me. I only have one personality.
Meg Glesener:
Is there a character or person in the Bible that you relate to or admire?
Jerry Dugan:
I would say Job, hands down, Job.
Meg Glesener:
Ah, Job.
Jerry Dugan:
Because I think we can agree. His ordeal sucked. He’s rich, he’s got a family, loves him. He’s known in his synagogue or his group as a very dedicated follower of God. And he loses all of it. And he doesn’t just lose all of it. His family, his wealth he goes through a horrible series of calamities, illnesses and so on, and he’s kind of being taunted by everybody. Like, Hey, just give up. God gave up on you. You should give up on God. And he stays fast and he holds true to that. He goes, no, whatever I, whatever’s going on, God’s not at fault. And he stays faithful and loyal to that. And whether he gets rewarded or not at the end did not matter to Job. I know a lot of people like to point out, well, look, he stayed loyal and God rewarded him, increased his wealth, increased his family. I’m like, yeah, but Job was like that without knowing there was a reward at the other side. And I admire him for that.
Meg Glesener:
Is there a flaw that keeps you on your knees in prayer?
Jerry Dugan:
Pride, yes. Of all the flaws, it’s pride. It’s the one that makes me think I could do it myself, that I have to do it myself. It’s the one that makes me think I can flirt around with any other type of sin that’s out there. Pride is usually at the heart of that. And when I recognize it, take a step back from it and just drop to my knees and turn to God. It, it’s weird. Those temptations also go away, at least for the time being, and then I got to go do it again and again and again and again.
Meg Glesener:
One thing I’ve thought about this year is what is the great theme of my life? Do you feel like you could say that you have a great message and theme of your life?
Jerry Dugan:
Oh man, that’s a good question. I would say the theme of my life is that what’s happened to you in the past isn’t designed to set you up for failure or you’re not destined for a life of doom and gloom, that you can take any hardship that’s come your way and reapply it with a different lens. And when you do that, when you find the positive, the silver lining in your situation, and how do you make the world a better place with the hand you have, then not only do you make an impact on the world around you, you’re making a huge impact on yourself, on the inside, and both kind of happen at the same time. You’re working on yourself, you’re getting better, you’re getting stronger, happier because Meg, you said a few times like the Jerry is happy and jovial and very lighthearted, but I’m also 45 years old and it’s taken years and years and years to get there. Even after I became a Christ follower, I just, even after I made that decision to be positive, it takes effort. And just keep in mind that you’re not bound to the circumstances you were given at some point. You can always make a change in the life and you can make a change in other people’s lives.
Meg Glesener:
I trust you’re encouraged by Jerry’s story as much as I am. It’s amazing all that he went through. And when I think of the prayer of a little boy or the prayer of a wife with her husband out in the military in war, these are hard, hard things. And yet God is behind the scenes answering prayers and working miracles and working wonders. I love the man of God Jerry is today and how he’s worked through Jerry’s life praying for us all today, that we just keep hope alive for people in our lives with those big issues. God is at work.
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Announcer 2:
Links from our guests will be in the show notes For more everyday extraordinary faith stories, go to our website, letters from home podcast.com, and click subscriber follow on whatever platform you’re listening.
Announcer 4:
To. Second Corinthians three, three. And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink, but with the spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts.
Announcer 5:
Until next time, go in peace.
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