Today we focus on the “tech” of culture, God, and tech. Nathan Sutherland shares a bit of what we can do to be intentional with our tech use, how we can talk about tech with our children, and how there is great hope for tech used well for ourselves and our children.
Transcription:
Nathan Sutherland:
Hello everyone and welcome to the Gospel Tech podcast. My name is Nathan Sutherland and this podcast is dedicated to helping families love God and use tech. Today we are continuing our conversation on well having two Nathans present. Nathan Betts is back with us again. Thank you Nathan.
Nathan Betts:
Yes, so good to be here.
Nathan Sutherland:
And we are going to just continue this conversation on how do we redeem our conversations on culture, God, and technology. You will recall last time we kind of covered the arc of the conversation for how did we get to this moment in our culture where we are post postmodern if you will? That we talked about reason being the most important and then feeling slash vibes and now the spot where we’re searching for anything to make us matter.
And we chose to take a quick breath of air to give our listeners a break, but we’re jumping right back into this first part of the conversation. We’re still talking cultural moment and Nathan I’d cut you off on, “Hey, let’s think about the tech moment.” I think you were at least heading towards technology and the cultural moment. We didn’t actually talk about what you were going to ask me. Did we want to jump there or do you want to continue to build on where we had been going with post-postmodernity and the moment that we’re in and what that means as parents and raising young people and meeting that?
Nathan Betts:
Yeah, and we can come back to what I was mentioning if there’s anything that comes up in your brain around those issues, but I think-
Nathan Sutherland:
I’m sure there will be.
Nathan Betts:
I had a question for you, particularly almost putting it back to you. Okay, so I landed the plane in the space of yeah, the moment in which we live in right now is indeed complex, incredibly complex, but Jesus is with us. That’s profoundly good news for us and there are so many questions that happen right now for parents. I mean certainly one of the questions that I have asked, but one of the questions is, “Hey look, how as a parent can I do well?”, and one of the questions is safety, but I think I want to zoom in on strong. So I want to sort of pull out whatever you have when it comes to not only navigating the technological waters that we have with all the stuff on the engine of social media, but in all the complexity, what does strong faith look like? Particularly in the family, how as a parent can I say strong, but then also how can I be that person, the mom or dad who can facilitate that kind of cultivate, steward, build, sow seeds that will build strong faith?
Nathan Sutherland:
Yeah, love it.
Nathan Betts:
What would you say there? There’s a lot there.
Nathan Sutherland:
Yeah, there is, and I think as parents, I mean we come at this with humility first of all, recognizing that the hope of the gospel that is ours is one of humility. This idea that we need a savior. So parents, we talk about this and I think it’s something I need reminded of regularly. I’m a sinner in need of a savior, that’s what makes me a saint. And then when we read whether it’s Romans five that, “But God” or Ephesians two, four, “But God being rich in mercy, this idea that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us”, which means our children aren’t problems to fix, they’re people to love. And so we start there recognizing, all right, I’m going to love my child. Well, that’s where this whole post modernity piece is. Love is not, we’re going to vibe with our children and we’re going to be besties.
And once they like me, then I’ll start to try to help them. No, I’m going to raise my children up in the way they should go. And the Bible shows us clearly how to do that, that we set loving boundaries just like God does for us, and we give loving repercussions just like God does for us, that he disciplines the ones he loves and he prunes the trees that are bearing good fruit. The plants that are bearing good fruit, the other ones get cut down and thrown into the fire.
So that’s your alternative, but it’s loving and sometimes painful to see growth and to raise kids in the way they should go. So parents, first we’re going to be humble, recognizing we’re not delivering anything to our kids that’s stemming from us. It’s not coming from our wisdom and hearts. We’re not finding our own truth and then trying to mold our children and our likeness. We are instead raising up kids to see God more clearly and they’re going to see that when we are quick to repent, when we repeat scripture to them and when we live it out.
With my kids, with each different child, so with Hadley, this is redirecting her behavior for things that bring her joy. Sometimes she’ll find joy in things that aren’t kind, and I’m like, “All right, you’re four but you’re also four, so we need to talk about that. You’re going to say sorry, you’re going to replace that behavior because we’re going to think about how we would feel in that situation. We’re going to treat others the way they would be treated want to be treated.” This isn’t just behavior modification, but it’s not not behavior modification. Your behavior didn’t line up with who God says we should be, so we’re going to modify it because it’s bad, but it’s not for the sake of you embarrassed me, it’s because what you did will bring death, left unfettered.
Or with another young person in my family, big reader picked up a book and was like, “Hey, my friend said this book is good.” By the way, I through a random series of events, was able to ask his friend about that, “Hey, what about this book?” He’s like, “Oh, my older brother reads that.” Well, this particular young man reads at a much higher level than his peers. So he is like, “Hey, my older sibling reads this book, you should read it.”
I’m like, “Buddy, it’s not a loving book. It’s not kind. The lessons that they’re encouraging in that book and the thoughts you should land on at the end. They don’t line up with what Jesus tells us. So maybe one day when you’re more settled in truth and right and wrong, you’ll be able to recognize it for what it is and go, oh, you know what? It’s a good story. That’s a lie and I can move along. But right now I’m basically just leaving the back door open and I know the yard’s full of snakes. I don’t know which one’s going to bite you, but there’s a really good chance you’re going to get bit.”
And so that loving conversation of, I set a boundary and said, “All right, for my daughter it was let’s modify behavior for my son, let’s augment the content. This just isn’t loving content for you to ingest right now. You ask for a good thing. And as Jesus says, we want to give our kids eggs when they ask for eggs, not scorpions, and this is a scorpion. It’s going to bite you, it’s going to sting you, it’s going to hurt.”
Then third, and lastly, I would say with my other child, an opportunity for me to go and say, sorry. I corrected an incorrect behavior. I didn’t do it with humility and I didn’t do it with grace. When we talk about Jesus, we see that it says that he doesn’t snuff out a smoldering wick, that there are people just hanging on for something to bring them purpose and hope that they know they’ve been made for. They just don’t know what it is.
And I didn’t do that. I came in with all of my God-given righteousness and a little bit more, and I dropped the hammer on him. He had been unkind, repeatedly needed correction, and it hadn’t fixed. And I kind of got mad and did the Moses hit the rock twice thing. Like God said, bring you water. I’m going to do this on my strength. So I was supposed to bring my son discipline and I brought it in my own strength and I did it with a loud voice and I did it with a lot of annoyance that he was an inconvenience and I had to go and say, “Son, I’m sorry I did the right thing in correcting your behavior. I did the wrong thing and doing it when I was really mad, not at your behavior. I was just mad at you because I was in a bad spot. Will you forgive me? That thing I told you is still true, but Dad handled it wrong.”
And I think when we as parents look at how can we raise up our kids, how can we be doing this? The first thing that comes to mind is that humility. And then the second thing that comes to mind is recognize there is a standard we’re pointing our children to, not to make them good enough, but there is a standard in light of the gospel in light of scripture. What Jesus tells us is, yeah, we’re going to love our neighbors, but we’re loving them towards something. We’re not simply loving them because love is love. That is both logically broken, but scripturally untrue. Not all feelings are love and not all things I identify as love are loving. Instead, there’s a standard that we live for our children and we live with our children. And I think that’s where I would encourage people to start based on my current struggles and experiences as a parent. Does that make sense?
Nathan Betts:
Yeah, no, that’s great. I actually am thinking of the two things. If I were to say them back humility and then what’s the other one?
Nathan Sutherland:
Standard, scriptural standard.
Nathan Betts:
Scriptural standard. So when I think of those two, I think of just words from the French mathematician, Blaise Pascal who wrote in those notes called Pensees, “Make it attractive, make good men wish it were true, then show that it is.” So the two-fold part of actually, well, what do they see? Humility. And actually also what am I doing? So in that case, Pascal was talking more about, ‘Okay, what are they seeing? Are they seeing the embodiment of something that is beautiful? And then also when I do talk to them, does that also reflect a beauty and truth to it?”
So that’s part of, I mean I don’t don’t know if you’re thinking, “Man, how do you get that from what I was saying?” But I guess I see it two-fold. What you’re saying is, yeah, there’s humility, there’s something of character that has to shine through that. They’ve got to see something that does show Jesus, but also the scriptures that symbols in both those two things coming out through not only what they see but what they hear.
Okay, so let’s stay there, but I’m going to sort go into the technological space and I’m going to turn it back to you here.
Nathan Sutherland:
Do it.
Nathan Betts:
So I gave a bit of very, very whistle-stop tour of sort of a history of how we got here. I mean, very shortly.
Nathan Sutherland:
Does whistle-stop mean quick?
Nathan Betts:
Yes.
Nathan Sutherland:
Does that mean it’s on a train and we’re going, we just blow the whistle as we go through? Is that what that means? Sorry, the metaphor, I’m really stuck on it. It means fast? All right, cool.
Nathan Betts:
Yeah, fast and also not by any stretch comprehensive, very sort of 30,000 feet view, but okay, so-
Nathan Sutherland:
You were thinking leagues under the sea for a second. I could see the wheels turning Go on.
Nathan Betts:
So when I did that, now let’s turn it over to you, but really zoom in on the technological piece, particularly all the things that come to mind there, social media, all the different ways in which for many of us we think, “Oh man, this is doing stuff to us that we don’t like”, but how do we get out of it? Now when it comes to, for me, when I think of apologetics or defending the faith and understanding why we believe what we believe, there are certain categories that we might not actually say it, but there are questions that we feel are, “Oh man”, it’s almost like as soon as we hear a question or an objection, we think, “Oh man, I don’t know if there’s anything good to say there.” It’s almost as though we don’t, there are categories where we’d say, “I don’t know if Christianity offers any good news there.”
Nathan Sutherland:
Yeah. I love that.
Nathan Betts:
Well, we can go there on another issue, but I want to actually zoom on that kind of question to technology. When it comes to digital technology, and you mentioned even, I can maybe set it up by saying what you mentioned on our last show, which was Ted talk to TikTok. That could be spot, but where would you say, first of all, are the spots insofar as technology concerned where we say we feel like, “Ugh, this is hopeless, this is Mount Improbable.” And also how do you as a person, friend, follower of Jesus say, “Actually, hold on, there’s another narrative here. There’s a hopeful narrative.”?
Nathan Sutherland:
Yeah, so huge question and I want to make sure I do this in a reasonable way and not take every one because I’m passionate about technology and specifically where the technology meets the gospel. How do we handle that? Well, so I can nerd on this long, but the question of where are we? I guess it was kind of twofold. It was a little bit I think of how we got here and a little bit of where are the spots that seem the darkest that I might be able to bring some hope to. It was almost like one, two, and two B.
So how do we get here? I mean that thought came to me while you were speaking last time, running through the enlightenment to how we got to postmodernism. And I realized in technology, we’ve done that in about 15 years. We’ve moved from TED talks where this is what people were doing in their free time. We were watching TED talks for fun in your evening viewing. This was something we were ingesting just the brightest minds and the best presenters that humanity has to offer and we’re learning about just myriad issues. And it was incredible.
And in 15 years we’ve gotten to the point where it’s TikTok. We went from TED talk to TikTok to the point where 30 seconds is the average length of a TikTok video. People are now having to play video game videos on the bottom half of their screen. So if you can look this up, watch TikTok video, Subway Surfer, and go to images and you’ll see this, there’ll be someone showing you how to put on makeup or someone talking about what they’re motivated about and trying to inspire others. But the bottom half of their screen or the top half depending on or the whole background and they’re just superimposed over it is a video game and Subway Surfer just happens to be one of them that is used a lot.
But basically we went from, “Oh, 20 minutes feels like an abridged really tight talk and a TED talk to 30 seconds is so long I can’t stay here unless there’s another video playing too.” And that to me says a lot about the culture, says a lot about where are we finding our purpose? Well, we’re finding a purpose in feeling good and if you can’t make me feel good fast, there’s no way I’m staying 30 seconds to see if it gets better. And so I think that’s very interesting. How do we get there? Well, smartphone is one because it brought the internet to our pockets. And then social media’s pivot in 2011, 2012 to become more behaviorally training where it became less about connecting people because they want to know people and more about driving people into interactions that will cause them to interact more so behavioral loops.
So the idea of infinite scroll and likes and followers and algorithmic-driven content where they’re just going to try to make you really happy or really mad because that’s the stuff that makes money. You get these companies where we now know that Meta knows that there is research that shows, you know what, this isn’t great specifically for teenage girls. They’re dealing with depression at a higher level than any time in history, and they’re dealing with it as a causal link between social media use and their lack of mental wellness.
And if you want any more on that, look up Jean Twenge and Jonathan Haidt. They actually have a Google Doc going on this. They also have a, I want to say it’s called Beyond Babylon. After Babylon? It’s a Substack, but check out the Google Doc. You can just Google either of them and they are, it’s 300 plus pages right now showing causal link, not correlation causation between a lack of mental health and social media use for teen girls and boys. Girls, it’s three and five. Teenage girls in 2022 said, “I’ve experienced prolonged bouts of sadness or depression”, one in three boys. So boys, our good number is 33%. That’s the side that’s winning and that’s deeply concerning.
It has to do with social media. That was an example of where tech began to spin out of control. So now we have the internet in our pocket with a smartphone, we have social media on it that’s designed for behavioral engagement and now we’re to the spot where it’s done to our attention. You can be fully literate, you can read, you just can’t stay long enough to get the message or to work out the conversation. And I think that is the concern. That certainly can lead people to spiral. They’re like, “Great, so we’ll never have a smartphone, we’ll never use the internet and we will run away to our Luddite paradise where there is no digital tech and therefore there are no problems.”
And I would just like to remind listeners, we had a pair of world wars before the invention of the smartphone or the internet. People were plenty evil prior to digital spaces. And there’s a lot of good happening in digital spaces. TikTok in fact has, last time I saw it was a third of the content was like faith-based, specifically Christian content. I can’t speak to their theology, but people are talking about God in these digital spaces. They’ve gone kind of the opposite of what sci-fi novels thought would happen. I mean sci-fi in the 1940s. Like, “Oh, we’re going to invent these super smart computing devices and God will be exposed for the lie that it’s just the manipulator of people.” And instead people get into these spaces where they can be whatever they want and do whatever they want and they’re so hungry for purpose beyond their own making.
They’re so hungry to do something other than have to tell the world who they are and have their own brand. I mean, you want to know why some of these kids are depressed? It’s because we started telling them that their brand matters and they have to manage it from the age of 10 or that they have to determine what gender they are and that that’s a lot of weight for a kid that can’t even define what it means to be a friend. So I don’t know what to be a friend, but I’m supposed to know my gender and that’s going to define the rest of my arc for my lifetime? That’s heavy.
So that’s what we can be worried about. I would then say, as I started to introduce the beauty in that is that we don’t have to go to a Luddite society. We can do two things really.
We begin to use tech on purpose, not for purpose. So we can use technology because we’re loved by Christ and we can go into those spaces knowing I already have an identity. So I’m not here to get people to like me. I’m not here to make a bunch of money. I’m not here to build my brand. I’m here to share the hope and life of Christ and to be a part of other people’s journeys in that and using those spaces appropriately. If you’re thinking, “Yeah, but that’s not really conducive in TikTok”, then I would encourage you to not use TikTok. Right now, I don’t use TikTok, I don’t use Snapchat because I agree those mediums don’t match the message I’m trying to send and that I feel called to.
The second piece is please know that because kids and young people and adults can get to what they always thought made them matter. They thought that job, they thought that money, they thought that possession would make them be satisfied. People are getting there way, way faster because in digital spaces like you look at a game like Fortnite, $5 billion a year. It’s a free to play game. That company brings in five and a half billion a year. Why? Because people are spending real world cash on microtransactions because it used to be, well, my cool J’s make me awesome and I’ve got nice clothes and that tells you who I am. Well, now it’s my character tells you who I am. This is what gets me the rapport with my friends is being good at this game and having the cool stuff in game. Well, I’m getting the coolest stuff. I’m getting as far as I can and then I’m realizing it doesn’t bring me joy. And people are searching for hope.
Christians, if you’re listening to this and you probably are, if you’re listening to Gospel Tech, you’re going to have people who made decisions with their bodies that don’t line up with God’s truth for them and they’re going to be showing up in your churches hungry for life and not knowing what to do with it. And some of those changes were irreversible and irreparable. Those happened a lot because of digital spaces they were in and what people were telling them was true. And they’re going to come looking for the well that can give them water that will make them never thirst again. That can set them free from the of trying to be something that they’re not and truly leaning into their identity in Christ. So know that we got here from a series of small choices that largely was driven in the digital space through the internet and through smartphones that brought the internet to us personally.
And then apps and applications, games that have leveraged the internet in that we’ve got to the self-actualization space where I can be whatever I want to be because of avatars, because of the internet, because of this brand that I can make filters allow me to look like and be like whatever I want to be to the point where that has broken us and we’ve realized, “Man, there’s no hope pursuing this and I want to be known and I want to fully know.” And people are asking questions about God that we never thought they would, in digital spaces to the point where now we’re at trying to figure out, “All right, how do we lovingly support these people?” Sure, maybe it’s in VR, maybe it’s in social media, but we can’t leave them there. We got to meet as the corporal body and be known. We got to get the screen out of the way at some point.
And that is, I think the most encouraging part. I mean, I’m seeing people in my own life come to me like, “Hey, where can I meet for a Bible study?” And this is a kid with a smartphone. This is a kid with access to, I mean, they could literally listen to all of Spurgeon’s sermons if that’s what they wanted to do. They could go have audiobooks from the brightest minds in human history talking about God, and that’s not what they hunger for. They hunger to know God, not to know about God.
And I think that’s so, so encouraging because the reason I brought up the thing about people’s and their bodies is churches I don’t know are ready to handle the amount of hunger these people have, that there are young people who will look different than we might want them to look and have made mistakes that we wish they hadn’t made, but it’s already done. It’s water under the bridge and that’s still a person made in the image and likeness of God. Yeah, with some harm and some hurt and some wear from the roads they’ve traveled, but man, hungry to know and be known and to be made new in Christ and to be filled with the Holy Spirit and to do the work God’s called them to do.
So Christians be encouraged. Do know that tech is scary? Do know that there’s plenty of little things. This conversation isn’t that. But when we talk about tool and rule tech, when we talk about reset, there’s lots of little things we can do to equip our own kids, but at the end of the day, it’s not keeping the bad stuff of the world away from them. It’s preparing them for the good work that God has saved them to do. As Ephesians two 10 tells us that we are God’s workmanship prepared beforehand for good works that we might glorify him in that. And that’s my hope for parents is that in hearing this, yes, recognize the fear of tech so that we act. Please don’t be indifferent to tech. It’s not just going to go away. It’s not just going to magically get better. It’s going to take real action and an honest standard to push back against both companies and our own urges on why not? It’s digital. Who am I hurting?
That is a little lie that whispers in all of our ears. Pushing back against that and then raising up kids who can recognize that. And yeah, there’ll be a 10-year gap here. We’ll look back and back, “Oh, we handed cigarettes to children with the way we handled some of our internet and smartphones.” We will have to say sorry for some of the way we raise our kids. But at this point, moving forward, recognizing the truth and hope of the gospel in a tech world and how that actually needs to drive the tech we make, not just inform it, but be the space we work from. We are enough. Therefore, let’s make tech that acts like that’s true and doesn’t promise people actualization through whatever escape they might be able to accomplish. And that’s the short version.
Nathan Betts:
That’s great. There’s so many things we could go into and I know we’re up against the clock here. Let me just say one last thing and see if you can give me an elevator answer.
Nathan Sutherland:
I’ll do my best.
Nathan Betts:
So I remember years ago reading the book Alone Together by Sherry Turkle, sociologist at MIT. And in that book she talks a lot about at that point that was really in many ways, a game changer and prescient book. She saw things down the road that people had not really seen yet, certainly at a small family level in terms of technology really invading our personal home space.
But one of the things she says in that book is when we’re asking questions like, “Is this bad? Is this tech thing bad? Is it good?” She says, “Well, that’s not the question. The question is, the issue is it does have the power to change our way of being in the world.” Now if we parachute that idea that she says, which I believe is true, into this conversation and interface it with discipleship now, our way of being and really our way of being, meaning we want to go towards Jesus.
Okay, here’s elevator question. What are practical ways in which we, given the technology and not saying the answer is, oh, Luddite, even though, albeit I will say I have certainly entertained that idea at different times.
Nathan Sutherland:
We all have.
Nathan Betts:
But what would you say in terms of, look, here’s some practical tools, and you have mentioned them already, but what are practical tools that are going to help us in the house, in our homes? A, and this is another maybe conversation become a bit more human and not the other way and also become more like Jesus.
So that’s maybe another show, but can you just give us maybe one or two things on which to hang?
Nathan Sutherland:
Yeah, I mean, first you need to know the kind of tech you’re talking about. And this should feel like review listeners, but you need to know if it’s tool or drool tech. And the reason is the design, drool tech is designed to help you consume. You need to know that so that you know how to make space. You need to build some boundaries around your tech because if you’re allowing it into all the spaces you are, there’s no way you’re going to have that clarity and the calm to be able to hear the still quiet voice of God. I mean, we see Jesus leaving his own disciples and his ministry to go be with the Father. And the point was, yeah, the ministry is important, but it’s because the father called me to it. It’s like I’m putting first things first. So we need to know the type of tech we’re using, knowing our reset.
Is it improving or impeding our relationships and responsibilities, emotion, sleep, enjoyment, time, because those are fruit checks. Everything that impedes those things. I have to then pull on that thread and goes, is that a hard issue that I’m looking to my email to give purpose and so I overuse it? Or is there something inherently unhealthy about this for me? So for me, that was video games. They’re inherently unhealthy for me. I have to avoid them. Everyone has to make that decision between you and God on what tech is helpful. A lot of us go, “Oh, you know what? It was just a lack of willpower at that time. That’s why I did this bad behavior.” Maybe. Or maybe you’re setting yourself up for failing. And as I would tell my middle school students, it’s not a you being a bad driver situation when you hit your brakes going a hundred on the freeway, a physics situation. Going a hundred was when you got a choice.
But it’s not a matter of you got in that wreck because you’re a bad driver next time just steer better. No, no, you’re going a hundred. There are mathematical truths that come in for how fast you can stop when that mistake shows up. And so the same thing is true with our technology. We need a buffer between some of our tech and sure, sometimes it’s just, “I need a little more space, I need to go a little slower.” Some of it is, “Nope, this is just unhealthy and it is not a matter of good and bad decisions. I can’t do this thing.”
And then third and finally, it is to engage the tech that we can on purpose, not for purpose. When I’m using it, I’m using it because I’m a new creation in Christ. So when I go on social media, it’s not because I really need to know how many people liked my post or I really need to weigh in on that conversation that’s going to make me feel awesome when I get to just let loose both barrels of my frustration on the stranger on the internet.
Nope, I’m a new creation and I care about these people. They’re hurting and I want to bring hope and truth and light, not to mock them, not to belittle them, not to snuff them out because darn it, we just had fewer people like that around, the world would be a better place. That’s not what Jesus says. He says those people need to repent and believe and be made new creations because we were just as much children of wrath prior to Christ making us new. And that I think is what we then have to apply to our kids, to our technology, and to the digital spaces that we go, whether it’s games, shows, Reddit threads, wherever you find yourself, because there is a lot of hope, there’s a lot of hurting people. And I would argue that a lot of those spaces are not conducive to real conversation because of how they’re designed.
I don’t think it has to be, but I believe a lot of that is designed to stir the pot because stirring the pot gets clicks and gets retweets or re-exes, however one says that these days. But yeah, that would be my, it wasn’t exactly elevator, but that would be my short pitch.
Nathan Betts:
Thank you. That’s great, man. That’s awesome.
Nathan Sutherland:
All right, you’re right. We did, we ran a little long on this one. I said all of the words, but my hope listeners is that you would hear this conversation growing on, all right, as we look at the culture of technology, there is some history on how we got here. It was little choices. Certainly we could have made different ones early on, but the point is, this is where we’re at. There are young people who are hungry, the technology is reaching them, and we can’t simply send them out into the ether and hope that, “Well, God’s got them in their hands”, like yeah.
And he called us to be the hands and feet of Christ. He called us to be the body and be empowered individual little Tabernacles filled with his Holy Spirit because everyone who trusts and believe in Christ receives that. Now we have everything we need for life, so we don’t have to look tech to fulfill us and for godliness so we can help other people trust and follow Jesus.
So let’s do that this week. Let’s pray into, Lord, where am I using tech well, and where is it using me? What changes can I make? Some of you are working in the tech industry. Some of you are designing these products. Are those products defaulting to safety and are they helping people create or are they causing people to consume? And then let’s have these conversations with their kiddos. Kids as young as five and six can talk about the type of tech and whether it’s healthy, they do get it. And actually sometimes they get it better than us. But that’s where I would encourage you guys to begin. And that’s where I’m working on me. Anything else for the good of the order, as some might say?
Nathan Betts:
No, I think that’s great, Nathan. Maybe for another show, but those are just, yeah, there’s a lot there. Really good thoughts to land on.
Nathan Sutherland:
All right, where can people find you? Nathan Betts?
Nathan Betts:
Yes. Nathanbetts.com
Nathan Sutherland:
Nathanbetts.com. Awesome. If you have any questions for us for future episodes, email questions at gospeltech.net, you can always find me [email protected] or on social media @LoveGodUseTech on Facebook and Instagram. And then join us next week as we continue this conversation about how we can love God and use tech and how we can redeem this conversation about culture, God, and technology.
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